144 replies to this topic

[2010KonaBlueGT]

YZD263, on 26 February 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Ford indeed left a lot of money on the table in the fisrt year of production of the GT500. At an average of $10K ADM per car for roughly 10,000 cars (the 2007 production),

All 2007's did not sell with a $10K ADM.

I know where there is a brand new 2007 sitting, right now and it doesn't have any ADM. He's trying to get the 2007 MSRP for it and it's been sitting in his showroom for a couple of years now (after sitting in his storage for a couple of years). It won't sell at MSRP and I think he's CRAZY for trying to get it. He bought it on speculation and he got burned by putting it in storage (which cost him money) and thinking the price would go UP, rather than down.

Ya win some, ya lose some. He's gonna lose more because he's being stubborn.

But my point is, all 2007's didn't sell for $10K over MSRP and in fact some sold for back of book/MSRP.

The dealers that put ADM on their cars had the ability to negotiate below MSRP (about $4-$5K, without losing their hold-back) so they could sell them or sit on them. It was their choice. If FoMoCo charged the dealers $10k more for the car, they wouldn't be able to negotiate the price down and there would be a TON of unsold 2007 GT500's sitting on lots across the country.

How many dealers would buy any 2008 GT500's if there was a surplus of overpriced 2007 GT5's laying around? Not many, if any at all.


JMHO,
Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

YZD263, on 26 February 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

My point is that if the 2014 is totally identical to the 2013, it does not make sense to erase the goodwill associated with the "Shelby GT500" name and replace it with "SVT Cobra", even if the cost is minimal. It could make more sense for the 2015, only because the car will lilely be totally new, lose its retrro stylling, and probably be aimed at a younger crowd for which the name Shelby has less significance.

I understand what you're saying and pretty much agree with it, BUT...

You only need to remember a year back when SHELBY started building GT350's. Shelby American is the builder of the GT350, not Ford Motor Company. Carroll Shelby owns the rights to the GT350 name and SA was smart to deciding that THEY would make the GT350 themselves, rather than license the name to Ford and let THEM get all of the profit (sans license fee). Shelby gets 100% of the profits on a GT350, other than the base price of the car which can be negotiated down to whatever price the consumer can negotiate it to.

The same thing could happen with the GT500 after Carroll Shelby passes.

I was told FORD would have to cease production of the GT500, not that the GT500 would die with Carroll Shelby.

Today, Shelby American takes a Ford GT500 and makes it into a Super Snake.

They could do the same thing with a "SVT Cobra" by making it into a GT500, or a GT500 Super Snake. No?

There are a TON of variences that "could be" and as I originally said, ONLY TIME WILL TELL (because SA sure isn't going to)!

Shelby ain't no dummy and neither is John Luft.


Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

KevinWitten, on 26 February 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

It's just supply and demand. When Ford sets the price they guess what demand that will bring. If they overestimate, there will be cars sitting on the lot. If they underestimate, the dealers will compensate by adding AMD.

I respectfully disagree.

There was no shortage of Acura NSX's when the dealers were marking them up like crazy. Or LT-5 ZR-1 Corvette's, or Volkswagon Beetles, or Mazda Miata's, or PT Cruisers, or GT500's, or....the list goes on and on.

They were new to the market and only the people that HAD to have them, and have them NOW were the people paying crazy ADM's.

It's not supply/demand that drives the ADM market, it's people who live in the world of instant gratification.
The people that just HAVE to have the latest greatest thing.
The people who just can't wait.
The people with "more money than brains" (no disrespect intended for those of you that paid crazy ADM's).
Etc.

It will happen with the 2013 GT500 too. People that just HAVE to have it NOW will pay premiums for that car.

And *I'm* not one of them!


Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Grabber, on 25 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Manny, The million dollar Question is what are you selling them for ?  Meaning MSRP or $500 under MSRP or ????

++++++100!

That, and just WHAT is MSRP going to be?

Not that it matters to me. I'm a impulse buyer and my impulse left me when my brain thought about the $$$$ hit I'd take.


Just curious,
Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

carnut12, on 25 February 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

Anyone that pays an ADM after seeing what happened to the folks that did so in 2007 is just plain Stupid and deserves to lose their shirt.

That's really unfair.

The only way someone will "lose their shirt" is if they paid a ADM and bought the car as a "investment", or to resell it. On paper, they lost money but if they never intend to sell the car, or sell it for a PROFIT, they've lost nothing.

If the buyer is happy or okay with the price they paid, who cares? Not I, that's for sure.

I don't look at someone who pays a crazy ADM as "stupid". *I* won't pay any ADM but that certainly doesn't make me smarter than they, or them 'stupid' (in my eyes).

I've always looked at "a good deal" as a sale where both the buyer and the seller walk away happy.


To each his own,
Phill

[melford]

Well said Phill- It all comes down to being happy with the purchase.

If you have money to burn and you MUST own the first one out...god bless ya!

Where'd Manny go??? I'm dying to hear his response to these questions. If the guy who was second among ALL SVT salesmen can't give us the answers, who can?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

melford, on 26 February 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

If the guy who was second among ALL SVT salesmen can't give us the answers, who can?

The guy in first? <lol>

Ford Motor Company???

Nobody's sayin', and that's kind'a scary.


Phill

[melford]

hahahahahaha, well played sir!

[YZD263]

2010KonaBlueGT, on 26 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I understand what you're saying and pretty much agree with it, BUT...

You only need to remember a year back when SHELBY started building GT350's. Shelby American is the builder of the GT350, not Ford Motor Company. Carroll Shelby owns the rights to the GT350 name and SA was smart to deciding that THEY would make the GT350 themselves, rather than license the name to Ford and let THEM get all of the profit (sans license fee). Shelby gets 100% of the profits on a GT350, other than the base price of the car which can be negotiated down to whatever price the consumer can negotiate it to.

The same thing could happen with the GT500 after Carroll Shelby passes.

I was told FORD would have to cease production of the GT500, not that the GT500 would die with Carroll Shelby.

Today, Shelby American takes a Ford GT500 and makes it into a Super Snake.

They could do the same thing with a "SVT Cobra" by making it into a GT500, or a GT500 Super Snake. No?

There are a TON of variences that "could be" and as I originally said, ONLY TIME WILL TELL (because SA sure isn't going to)!

Shelby ain't no dummy and neither is John Luft.


Phill

I think that we agree on this. It's just that I was looking at the situation from Ford's point of view. It's simply not very smart business on their part to put the name of one of their products at the mercy of someone's longevity. Looking at it from Shelby's point of view though, what you say makes perfect sense. I'm sure that there is more money to be made by Shelby using the name on its own products.

It wouldn't be the first time that Ford undervalues the importance of acquiring/protecting the trademark on one of its products. The Ford GT is a good example. Ford didn't protect the "GT40" name, which was subsequently used by a company making replica of the original car, which in turn, preventing Ford from using the GT40 name.

Edited by YZD263, 26 February 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[bpmurr]

JeffInDFW, on 25 February 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

I'm pulling ALL of this out of my butt, so no inside sources.......I wonder if Ford is thinking.....

When the GT500 came out in 2007, they priced it at a reasonable level, but the dealers jacked the price thru the roof and GOT IT for most of the first model year.  Ford priced the Ford GT at a reasonable level, and watched dealers jack the price thru the roof and get it.  Now, all these years later GTs are still selling for more than the original sticker asking price.

I wonder if Ford is thinking....We have a hot ticket here and this time WE are going to get the profit from it instead of sitting here watching the dealers add on the dealer ADM.  Put the car where the dealers WOULD have placed it anyway, and we will get the extra profit.  There are enough "fat cats" out there that will pay the higher price to be able to sell out the first model year at the higher price.  For the 2014s, all they have to do is put a $7,000 rebate on the car to help move them, and that will STILL be a big, healthy profit for Ford since this year they are jacking an extra $10,000 onto the MSRP.

Am I nuts?  What do you guys think???

That would be a really bad move when you're not even two full years away from a brand new Mustang.  They need to keep sales going with the refresh but not kill them getting greedy.

[KevinWitten]

2010KonaBlueGT, on 26 February 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I respectfully disagree.

There was no shortage of Acura NSX's when the dealers were marking them up like crazy. Or LT-5 ZR-1 Corvette's, or Volkswagon Beetles, or Mazda Miata's, or PT Cruisers, or GT500's, or....the list goes on and on.

They were new to the market and only the people that HAD to have them, and have them NOW were the people paying crazy ADM's.

It's not supply/demand that drives the ADM market, it's people who live in the world of instant gratification.
The people that just HAVE to have the latest greatest thing.
The people who just can't wait.
The people with "more money than brains" (no disrespect intended for those of you that paid crazy ADM's).
Etc.

It will happen with the 2013 GT500 too. People that just HAVE to have it NOW will pay premiums for that car.

And *I'm* not one of them!


Phill

If the dealer can mark up any car and get it, it is by definition due to a short supply for the given demand at the time the sales are made at the higher price.

People who live in the world of instant gratification are a part of the demand as are people willing to wait for the price to come down. The supply/demand curve changes with time due to the value different people place on a given product.

You can disagree if you like, but it is basic economics.

[Mulanzo]

2010KonaBlueGT, on 26 February 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

They were new to the market and only the people that HAD to have them, and have them NOW were the people paying crazy ADM's.

I'll just chime in about my personal experience..

I ordered my 2011 with SVTPP the day the order bank was released.  Not only did I pay under MSRP, from what I recall, I spent only a grand and change over invoice.  I had to haggle a bit and promised a future purchase of another car (not in writing...) but they ended up really discounting the car.  I was the first GT500 order from that dealer.  When the salesman dealing with me asked for clearance from the Sales Manager for the price.. I overheard him say... "It's a cold day in February.... why not."  

So I should say, though I'm definitely in the category of needing instant gratification, I by no means was raped with an ADM, and quite the contrary.  I guess each persons experience in different, but I REALLY lucked out with the purchase of my first car.

[KevinWitten]

Mulanzo, on 26 February 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'll just chime in about my personal experience..

I ordered my 2011 with SVTPP the day the order bank was released.  Not only did I pay under MSRP, from what I recall, I spent only a grand and change over invoice.  I had to haggle a bit and promised a future purchase of another car (not in writing...) but they ended up really discounting the car.  I was the first GT500 order from that dealer.  When the salesman dealing with me asked for clearance from the Sales Manager for the price.. I overheard him say... "It's a cold day in February.... why not."  

So I should say, though I'm definitely in the category of needing instant gratification, I by no means was raped with an ADM, and quite the contrary.  I guess each persons experience in different, but I REALLY lucked out with the purchase of my first car.

Glad you got a good deal. There are some dealers that will treat customers "fair" (fair being my own opnion). The dealer in my area was asking $74,000 for the only one he had on the lot. I made it clear to the sales man that I would not buy any car from him and I stopped servicing my current vehicle there. I found another dealer that was fair (below MSRP as well) when I bought my 2011. Ya gotta shop around. And if enough people make it known that the dealers that do charge AMD will not get ther future business on any vehicle, then dealers may stop this practice, or loose buisness.

[melford]

I keep hearing that the dealers "should" have pricing in a few weeks...is that when people can start placing real orders? Anybody know when the first one's will hit the lot?

I'm trying to get an honest feel for when the mania will subside and I'll be able to have an intelligent conversation with a dealer.

[Mulanzo]

No idea but I started doing the math and pricing it out based on what the options are going to cost (it's probable that a glass roof is the same across the board, as is the shaker pro etc), and a fairly fully loaded GT500 isn't feasible this year for me (assuming the cost is likely to be higher than the current $58999 that MSRP is listed on Ford.ca in Canada for the 2012).  I'm expecting that a fully optioned car will be around the 10k mark over the base (Recaros, Shaker Pro, Navigation, SVTPP, Track Pack).  Add to that 13% tax in Ontario and you're looking at an unhappy camper.  I love this car like crazy...but I'm not crazy enough to do that when I have a wedding and a new house already on my plate coming up.  CRAP.  It's a good thing I am still madly in love with my current car lol (I sometimes wonder why I would sell it when I love it so much and then I look at the 2013 and see all that it could have been if I were just a bit more patient....)  The killer of it all is the tax.  When I bought the 2011, it was only 7 or 8% tax and just after my car arrived, they harmonized our taxes to 13%, merging federal and provincial.  Now you have to pay both on the car......DAMN!  Even worse is that our dollar is nearly at par and we're likely to pay 10k more over the base car.

Edited by Mulanzo, 27 February 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[jnf]

Let me know how that "intelligent conversation" goes with the dealer.
Was out getting my GT500 serviced this past Saturday and decided to inquire about the 13's.
Manager wouldn't talk to me; simply referred me to a sales person. She had no information and had to go back to the manager only to tell me that they wouldn't have any info on pricing or ADM's untill April.
I asked, " ADM's? Are you serious?" She replied, " well it is a specialty high performance vehicle and will be in high demand."
I informed her that this type of a purchase is a desire only, not a necessity, and that is how I was looking at the potential purchase.
I politely let her know that if there was an ADM to not bother calling me and that I would look elsewhere.
Not to mention the fact that I wasn't even sure if I wanted to actually make the purchase, but an ADM would surely decide this for me.

[mgalvan]

Grabber, on 25 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Manny, The million dollar Question is what are you selling them for ?  Meaning MSRP or $500 under MSRP or ????

contact me so we can talk about price.  I'll be more than happy to work with you.

Thanks,

Manny Galvan

702 400 0999

[mgalvan]

jnf, on 27 February 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Let me know how that "intelligent conversation" goes with the dealer.
Was out getting my GT500 serviced this past Saturday and decided to inquire about the 13's.
Manager wouldn't talk to me; simply referred me to a sales person. She had no information and had to go back to the manager only to tell me that they wouldn't have any info on pricing or ADM's untill April.
I asked, " ADM's? Are you serious?" She replied, " well it is a specialty high performance vehicle and will be in high demand."
I informed her that this type of a purchase is a desire only, not a necessity, and that is how I was looking at the potential purchase.
I politely let her know that if there was an ADM to not bother calling me and that I would look elsewhere.
Not to mention the fact that I wasn't even sure if I wanted to actually make the purchase, but an ADM would surely decide this for me.

You live in Vegas?  Come over to Gaudin.  I'm the HIgh Performance Vehicle Manager here.  I'll have pricing and dropping in orders next week.

Manny Galvan
Gaudin Ford
702 400 0999

[melford]

Hi Manny, We live in south Florida, but do business trips to Vegas at least twice a year.

I want a 2013 Convertible in Grabber Blue with stripes at a reasonable price...i'm willing to wait for the  "gotta have the first one" kinda guys to blow their load...excuse the vulgarity.

If you're my guy for the best price on both the car and shipping it to my house, we have something to talk about.

First off before we even think of price, what are the timelines we're dealing with?

Thanks for getting back to me- Melford

[SVT NAJA]

Let the bidding begin...