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#31 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:53 PM

The billet alumnium would be pure waste of money unless you are ok paying 400 extra dollars just for the bling factor. The whiteline product is superior and cost less.


"Pure waste of money"? On what basis? To whom? Depending upon when a person buys one and available promotions at the time, the price difference CAN be negligible. And "superior" on what basis? People with a 9" axle would have one hell of a time running the White Line product and for somebody SO vexed by using an SCT to change his speedo's tire size calibration, you're awfully quick to go cracking-upon your differential and replacing its cover with something aftermarket.

With such a penchant for empirical information, strange to see the difference in how the systems attach, their ease of servicing and removal, weight and durability or performance dismissed as "bling" so summarily. What about people who prefer to have their vehicles exclusively Shelby or Ford Racing in their components? Are they "blingers" too? With the exception of near-universal reports that watts links of pretty-much ALL known types are a tremendous improvement over a panhard bar, there's been almost no relative comparison data whatsoever between them.

Yea I talked to them they said its the best thing ever blah blah blah. I want normal people reviews who don't gain from telling whether its a good product or bad.

Though upon reading this article I did not know this is 29 pounds. Thats basically the same weight as the fays [sic] which people always complain about it being too heavy. Thats interesting I thought maybe this would be like 20 pounds or something.


But wait, I thought you'd already made up your mind?

It's 29 lbs because it includes a differential cover - and a rather blingy one at that given how substantial it needs to support the pivot. Where has there been any complaints about the Fays units based upon their weight? The billet unit happens to be lighter, but the intrinsic downsides to the Fays units have absolutely nothing to do with weight - though given the GT500's relative imbalance, a terrific case could be made for a few extra pounds improving balance more than they harm power/weight.

The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds.

It'll be interesting to see what the first reports of White Line's unique "Elastomer" bushings hold forth versus urethane, Delrin or any of the other exotic materials used versus spherical ends the Fays are very much weapons grade in that respect.

I wonder how many "reviews" it will take...

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#32 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:04 PM

"Pure waste of money"? On what basis? To whom? Depending upon when a person buys one and available promotions at the time, the price difference CAN be negligible. And "superior" on what basis? People with a 9" axle would have one hell of a time running the White Line product and for somebody SO vexed by using an SCT to change his speedo's tire size calibration, you're awfully quick to go cracking-upon your differential and replacing its cover with something aftermarket.

With such a penchant for empirical information, strange to see the difference in how the systems attach, their ease of servicing and removal, weight and durability or performance dismissed as "bling" so summarily. What about people who prefer to have their vehicles exclusively Shelby or Ford Racing in their components? Are they "blingers" too? With the exception of near-universal reports that watts links of pretty-much ALL known types are a tremendous improvement over a panhard bar, there's been almost no relative comparison data whatsoever between them.



But wait, I thought you'd already made up your mind?

It's 29 lbs because it includes a differential cover - and a rather blingy one at that given how substantial it needs to support the pivot. Where has there been any complaints about the Fays units based upon their weight? The billet unit happens to be lighter, but the intrinsic downsides to the Fays units have absolutely nothing to do with weight - though given the GT500's relative imbalance, a terrific case could be made for a few extra pounds improving balance more than they harm power/weight.

The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds.

It'll be interesting to see what the first reports of White Line's unique "Elastomer" bushings hold forth versus urethane, Delrin or any of the other exotic materials used versus spherical ends the Fays are very much weapons grade in that respect.

I wonder how many "reviews" it will take...


Ok I'm referring to actual quality of the piece. Not its worth if it has the shelby name on it or not. And yea if there are sales then the price difference would decrease not be neglible. I am saying whiteline is superior because given from everyone else's reviews and other discussions differential mounted watts links are usually better in the fact they don't break. People talk about how steeda and fays break, but never once I have heard of a griggs unit for example breaking. But then thats the problem with the others and why the fays was so awesome. While it may not be more robust it was apparently quiet, easy to install, and worked.

Now if the whiteline is just as quiet and is 100% bolt in like the fays and has the benefits of a differential mounting point then it is in fact better. And why are you even argueing this fact when you bought it yourself? You obviously bought it over the fays for a reason.

The billet unit is 2 pounds lighter. Now that is something neglible. And it may not even be stronger given that it isn't one solid piece and 3 different pieces instead. But again not enough people buy it to test it to see the differences.

You urself once again started a thread on that topic trying to find out the differences and not enough people wilth experience could comment on it. And yea I rather change a differential cover then mess with my cars computer. Once I plug that SCT in then its documented on the cars computer. If my differential cover breaks its very easy to switch back to stock with no impact on warranty and no trace of an aftermarket one.

And as far as deciding on the watts link I'm about 95% towards whiteline. I am waiting for you and petey to post reviews before I make my deicsion. If both of you say its good then I'll get it.

Edited by svt13, 17 October 2012 - 01:04 PM.

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Mods:
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nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
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#33 OFFLINE   03 DSG Snake

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

Whiteline is a promising looking piece. Excited to see more get installed and the feedback that ensues.
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#34 OFFLINE   Tob

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:08 PM

I've done quite a bit of research in terms of available (as well as previously available) Watt's link kits for the S197 chassis. From Griggs, Whiteline, Steeda, Fays, Techo, Saleen, etc, they all have theoretical advantages as well as disadvantages. Some have a fixed roll center or not via the body or the axle cover. Some have little adjustment (or none at all) of the roll center while others offer quite a bit of adjustment range. Some use predominately steel while others make judicious use of aluminum. Some are quite comfortable with single shear while others favor double shear. Some are 100% bolt on while others require welding.

A lot of theory at play as well as differing philosophies. In the end, it is simply a matter of choice - however personal.

I'm a big fan of using quality rod ends. I like to see items in double shear where possible. And I have no problem with aluminum if it can be shown that the dimensions chosen meet a specific criteria that hinders neither performance or relative strength. That said, I think it good that WL has entered the market if for anything to offer more choice. And what I think is important for potential end users to focus on is the type of performance they are looking for and how much they are willing to compromise ('soft' bushings for minimal NVH, etc).

What I'd really like to see are the development pieces that you just know that SVT played with when developing the 2013 GT500, Boss, etc. The panhard bar argument won out in the end. Just another item in the long line of parts in the OEM void that the aftermarket is so willing to fill.

Tob

#35 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

I've done quite a bit of research in terms of available (as well as previously available) Watt's link kits for the S197 chassis. From Griggs, Whiteline, Steeda, Fays, Techo, Saleen, etc, they all have theoretical advantages as well as disadvantages. Some have a fixed roll center or not via the body or the axle cover. Some have little adjustment (or none at all) of the roll center while others offer quite a bit of adjustment range. Some use predominately steel while others make judicious use of aluminum. Some are quite comfortable with single shear while others favor double shear. Some are 100% bolt on while others require welding.

A lot of theory at play as well as differing philosophies. In the end, it is simply a matter of choice - however personal.

I'm a big fan of using quality rod ends. I like to see items in double shear where possible. And I have no problem with aluminum if it can be shown that the dimensions chosen meet a specific criteria that hinders neither performance or relative strength. That said, I think it good that WL has entered the market if for anything to offer more choice. And what I think is important for potential end users to focus on is the type of performance they are looking for and how much they are willing to compromise ('soft' bushings for minimal NVH, etc).

What I'd really like to see are the development pieces that you just know that SVT played with when developing the 2013 GT500, Boss, etc. The panhard bar argument won out in the end. Just another item in the long line of parts in the OEM void that the aftermarket is so willing to fill.

Tob


You think SVT played with the idea of a watts link? I think a watts link made by SVT or FRPP would be awesome.

Edited by svt13, 17 October 2012 - 02:11 PM.

2013 shelby gt500 black w/black stripe SVTPP,Recaros,Electronics Package,Glass roof,car cover.

Mods:
35% window tint

nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
Boss x brace, MGW shifter, Boss side exhaust, Corsa black diamond axleback, Lithium battery

#36 OFFLINE   ViperNC

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:26 AM

Madlock - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."

Would like to know more about this. Does this apply only to the steel versions for Fays? And yes, I have bling disease. The billet aluminum is not only functional, but a show piece as well. I like the clean design. Not sure I'm thrilled about the "clunking at low speeds". Hoping that is not a characteristic of the aluminum piece.

Edited by ViperNC, 21 October 2012 - 03:37 PM.

 

 

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#37 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

SVT13 - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."

Would like to know more about this. Does this apply only to the steel versions for Fays? And yes, I have bling disease. The billet aluminum is not only functional, but a show piece as well. I like the clean design. Not sure I'm thrilled about the "clunking at low speeds". Hoping that is not a characteristic of the aluminum piece.


There's no functional difference between the billet or tubular designs. The billet piece simply replaces the welded and powder coated structure - albeit with an additional adjustment point setting. The reported "clunking" comes from it spherical ends rather than bushings. On one hand, spherical ends are inherently subject to less deflection or binding - a good thing. A certain amount of NVH under certain circumstances is the downside.

It was a tough choice for me - with 2 cars to equip. For the first, I ultimately chose White Line - despite my desire to remain Shelby/Ford Racing-exclusive. I may use a Fays unit in the second car, but I went with the White Line on my first because it represents about as close to the theoretical design ideal as I can envision. To accommodate the "bling" factor, I simply had the White Line unit re-powder coated to match the rest of the underside's control arm/mount color scheme.

I'm being very careful in having the White Line unit installed because it's going on a '13 with the Track Package and differential cooling system. The OE axle cover's cooling ports are oriented E-W while the White Line unit's taps are N-S, so I'm being especially careful to ensure the plumbing is routed in such a manner that it has a clean and clear run without any chance of inadvertently restricting coolant flow.

After being leery about the White Line unit at first because of the amount of stress it seemed to place on such a small area, my anxiety was quickly quelled the moment I actually saw and held the parts. The differential cover is beautifully machined and phenomenally robust - as is the pivot mount that spreads the load over 6 attachment points on the differential cover and ultimately the entire differential cover mount.

My ONLY regret so far is that, rather than using a more traditional or neutral color, White Line likes its yellow "elastomer" bushings - a branding thing I can learn to live with.

I test drive my car tomorrow after upgrading all of the control arms and mounts and installing the components of the FR-3 Handling Pack that are relevant to the '13 with SVTPP (basically everything but new dampers). After ensuring it delivers the kind of ride and handling properties I want, the White Line link will go in Tuesday or Wednesday so I can also have a better sense of which upgrades deliver what characteristic so I know what to reverse or do differently if they prove undesirable.

I'm really looking forward to the FR-3 pack with the dual-mode BIlsteins. Especially with the additional engine and cooling system mass, I'm particularly looking forward to bringing down the CG and doing some comparative runs.

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#38 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:23 PM

There's no functional difference between the billet or tubular designs. The billet piece simply replaces the welded and powder coated structure - albeit with an additional adjustment point setting. The reported "clunking" comes from it spherical ends rather than bushings. On one hand, spherical ends are inherently subject to less deflection or binding - a good thing. A certain amount of NVH under certain circumstances is the downside.

It was a tough choice for me - with 2 cars to equip. For the first, I ultimately chose White Line - despite my desire to remain Shelby/Ford Racing-exclusive. I may use a Fays unit in the second car, but I went with the White Line on my first because it represents about as close to the theoretical design ideal as I can envision. To accommodate the "bling" factor, I simply had the White Line unit re-powder coated to match the rest of the underside's control arm/mount color scheme.

I'm being very careful in having the White Line unit installed because it's going on a '13 with the Track Package and differential cooling system. The OE axle cover's cooling ports are oriented E-W while the White Line unit's taps are N-S, so I'm being especially careful to ensure the plumbing is routed in such a manner that it has a clean and clear run without any chance of inadvertently restricting coolant flow.

After being leery about the White Line unit at first because of the amount of stress it seemed to place on such a small area, my anxiety was quickly quelled the moment I actually saw and held the parts. The differential cover is beautifully machined and phenomenally robust - as is the pivot mount that spreads the load over 6 attachment points on the differential cover and ultimately the entire differential cover mount.

My ONLY regret so far is that, rather than using a more traditional or neutral color, White Line likes its yellow "elastomer" bushings - a branding thing I can learn to live with.

I test drive my car tomorrow after upgrading all of the control arms and mounts and installing the components of the FR-3 Handling Pack that are relevant to the '13 with SVTPP (basically everything but new dampers). After ensuring it delivers the kind of ride and handling properties I want, the White Line link will go in Tuesday or Wednesday so I can also have a better sense of which upgrades deliver what characteristic so I know what to reverse or do differently if they prove undesirable.

I'm really looking forward to the FR-3 pack with the dual-mode BIlsteins. Especially with the additional engine and cooling system mass, I'm particularly looking forward to bringing down the CG and doing some comparative runs.


I forgot to mention to you that engineer from Ford racing finally emailed me back. They said the FR3 sway bars are not better than the SVTPP 13 sway bars. He said they are the same. You may want to return them and look towards steeda and H&R because as of now they are the only ones which are better, steeda being the best.
2013 shelby gt500 black w/black stripe SVTPP,Recaros,Electronics Package,Glass roof,car cover.

Mods:
35% window tint

nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
Boss x brace, MGW shifter, Boss side exhaust, Corsa black diamond axleback, Lithium battery

#39 OFFLINE   Tob

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

Madlock - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."


They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.

#40 OFFLINE   Albino500

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.

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#41 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:48 PM

They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.


Welding and grinding is a threshold I'd prefer to leave uncrossed. Except on a car I ran predominately on the track, I'm not sure I'd like to install anything I knew would make me wish I hadn't at some point. I'd probably just replaceme the entire axle assembly which is available dirt cheap while also providing the option to have two very different cars, with different final drive gearing and different differentials biased toward the occasion. I love how modular these cars can be.

But back to the broader topic - and the White Line Watts Link in particular. My car's been on the lift all weekend to make its suspension weapons grade. The White Line unit is beautifully-designed but certainly not entirely perfect, at least at the point of actually putting it on the car.

I was disappointed to learn that various hardware components were either incorrectly-supplied or missing altogether. I was even more surprised to discover that many of the threads weren't very cleanly tapped and required a good amount of secondary refining and clean-up. But the biggest surprise was the differential cooling taps.

The differential cover is supplied with its own plugs that fit very nicely. However, despite the return port being perfectly-sized to accommodate the OE plumbing hardware, the inlet was far too small and is now being re-tapped to the proper diameter to accommodate the OE hardware and avoid any kind of cooling flow restriction a cobbled-together remedy might create.

Other niggles include Installation Instructions that don't necessarily correspond to the types and sizes of hardware provided and White Line's differential cover not accommodating the standard differential vent, requiring an alternate to be tapped on the axle. The last issue (to this point) has been the need to reroute certain lines to provide completely unimpeded range of motion, something the included documentation could've been much more useful had it mentioned.

Fortunately, my tech is phenomenally fastidious and discovered these issues in mocking-up the entire assembly before trying to put it on the car. None of them are issues that can't and won't be overcome, but it's still rather disappointing when such a dear product isn't "right" out of the box. Hopefully White Line takes notice and plans to remedy these issues in the future.

In the meantime, I'm really looking forward to driving my '13 with its upgraded upper and lower control arms and relocation brakets, FR-3 L Springs and 5490-B Sway Bar Kit with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, Shelby Caster/Camber plates and the White Line Watts Link. I'll be driving the car for a day or so before replacing the Panhard Bar with the Watts Link arms - just to have a way to isolate and resolve any potential issues that may require tracing back to a specific source before introducing something so entirely different from the car's OE suspension. After also refinishing and powder-coating each of the components to match, it will hopefully also look as good as I intend it to drive.

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#42 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

I forgot to mention to you that engineer from Ford racing finally emailed me back. They said the FR3 sway bars are not better than the SVTPP 13 sway bars. He said they are the same. You may want to return them and look towards steeda and H&R because as of now they are the only ones which are better, steeda being the best.


Strange - as not only did I receive very different information from Ford Racing, but comparing the actual 5490-B Kit Sway Bars to the OE parts proved the components to be equally different.

2014 GT500 Coupe • Race Red on Oxford White • Electronics Package • Glass Roof • Performance Package • Track Package • Recaro Seats • Shaker Pro Audio

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2013 GT500 Convertible • Race Red on Performance WhiteElectronics PackagePerformance PackageRecaro SeatsShaker Pro AudioGT500 Car Cover

2012 BOSS 302 • Performance White on Race Red • Recaro Seat and Helical Differential • BOSS 302 Car Cover

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#43 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:17 AM

Strange - as not only did I receive very different information from Ford Racing, but comparing the actual 5490-B Kit Sway Bars to the OE parts proved the components to be equally different.


Post pics. They told me they aren't going to do testing with them because they are almost the same.

The stock SVTPP bars are 34.6mm front and 25 rear. The FR3 bars are 35mm front and 24 mm rear.
2013 shelby gt500 black w/black stripe SVTPP,Recaros,Electronics Package,Glass roof,car cover.

Mods:
35% window tint

nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
Boss x brace, MGW shifter, Boss side exhaust, Corsa black diamond axleback, Lithium battery

#44 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:12 AM

Post pics. They told me they aren't going to do testing with them because they are almost the same.

The stock SVTPP bars are 34.6mm front and 25 rear. The FR3 bars are 35mm front and 24 mm rear.


You're obviously comfortable and confident with the information you've received. If you already know they’re different, what do you expect from pictures? They're sway bars. Need to see a millimeter? It’s the little tick on the metric side of a ruler.

FR develops kits provide a particular combinations of properties very similarly to how OE parts are chosen for theirs. SVT doesn't "test" to see how DIFFERENT items are. It "tests" ONLY if properties are different enough to create negative effects like exceeding design tolerances or creating bump steer.

Baseline 2011-12 Sway Bars are 33.2 and 23mm. The SVTPP's rear bar is 24mm. How different do you expect dimensions to be relative to their resulting characteristics? Ask Ford for pictures of the '12 and '13 sway bars and to explain bothering with creating an entirely new component over a millimeter.

Do yourself a BIG favor. Rather than kvetching over numbers and pictures, go drive a 2011+ car with an FR-3 pack in any kind of performance setting and see how differently it handles than a stock suspension. Hell, compare the same car with and without the SVTPP. (Don't forget the pictures). Or just do the math. Even if the difference is ONLY proportionate to the diameters, it's a 1% difference up-front, 4% in the rear and 5% overall which is a pretty radical balance shift.

Just how much of a numerical difference do you expect before having VERY tangible effects?

You seem more fixated upon numbers rather than the effect they have or, more importantly, the outcome you hope to achieve. “Better” is too ambiguous and subjective an expectation for even the whole of SVT to engineer against. Not all differences are “better” in every environment and many degrade certain properties like everyday ride to enhance others like performance at the limits.

You've just discovered how lousy F:1 G-2's can be and the negative effect its properties have upon ride comfort and steering feel when conditions aren't in its wheelhouse - something that has a bigger effect upon handling and feel than the FR-3 kit in most circumstances. Who can hope to come within a mile of managing those expectations?

Regardless of the kit’s actual effect upon handling, since I'm already not prepared to create comparative skidpan data, I'm going to jump off the train here. Rather than ruminating over fractional millimeters, do yourself a favor and find somebody nearby with an FR-3 pack whose car you can drive for yourself in the meantime.

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#45 OFFLINE   Albino500

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

Welding and grinding is a threshold I'd prefer to leave uncrossed. Except on a car I ran predominately on the track, I'm not sure I'd like to install anything I knew would make me wish I hadn't at some point. I'd probably just replaceme the entire axle assembly which is available dirt cheap while also providing the option to have two very different cars, with different final drive gearing and different differentials biased toward the occasion. I love how modular these cars can be.

But back to the broader topic - and the White Line Watts Link in particular. My car's been on the lift all weekend to make its suspension weapons grade. The White Line unit is beautifully-designed but certainly not entirely perfect, at least at the point of actually putting it on the car.

I was disappointed to learn that various hardware components were either incorrectly-supplied or missing altogether. I was even more surprised to discover that many of the threads weren't very cleanly tapped and required a good amount of secondary refining and clean-up. But the biggest surprise was the differential cooling taps.

The differential cover is supplied with its own plugs that fit very nicely. However, despite the return port being perfectly-sized to accommodate the OE plumbing hardware, the inlet was far too small and is now being re-tapped to the proper diameter to accommodate the OE hardware and avoid any kind of cooling flow restriction a cobbled-together remedy might create.

Other niggles include Installation Instructions that don't necessarily correspond to the types and sizes of hardware provided and White Line's differential cover not accommodating the standard differential vent, requiring an alternate to be tapped on the axle. The last issue (to this point) has been the need to reroute certain lines to provide completely unimpeded range of motion, something the included documentation could've been much more useful had it mentioned.

None of them are issues that can't and won't be overcome, but it's still rather disappointing when such a dear product isn't "right" out of the box. Hopefully White Line takes notice and plans to remedy these issues in the future.


Thanks for the update observations of the WL watts link setup - hope that you can provide some more incites once it gets on the car. :camera:
2007 GT500 Built on 7/27/2006
#918 of a build of 8152 coupes
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#46 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:19 AM

You're obviously comfortable and confident with the information you've received. If you already know they’re different, what do you expect from pictures? They're sway bars. Need to see a millimeter? It’s the little tick on the metric side of a ruler.

FR develops kits provide a particular combinations of properties very similarly to how OE parts are chosen for theirs. SVT doesn't "test" to see how DIFFERENT items are. It "tests" ONLY if properties are different enough to create negative effects like exceeding design tolerances or creating bump steer.

Baseline 2011-12 Sway Bars are 33.2 and 23mm. The SVTPP's rear bar is 24mm. How different do you expect dimensions to be relative to their resulting characteristics? Ask Ford for pictures of the '12 and '13 sway bars and to explain bothering with creating an entirely new component over a millimeter.

Do yourself a BIG favor. Rather than kvetching over numbers and pictures, go drive a 2011+ car with an FR-3 pack in any kind of performance setting and see how differently it handles than a stock suspension. Hell, compare the same car with and without the SVTPP. (Don't forget the pictures). Or just do the math. Even if the difference is ONLY proportionate to the diameters, it's a 1% difference up-front, 4% in the rear and 5% overall which is a pretty radical balance shift.

Just how much of a numerical difference do you expect before having VERY tangible effects?

You seem more fixated upon numbers rather than the effect they have or, more importantly, the outcome you hope to achieve. “Better” is too ambiguous and subjective an expectation for even the whole of SVT to engineer against. Not all differences are “better” in every environment and many degrade certain properties like everyday ride to enhance others like performance at the limits.

You've just discovered how lousy F:1 G-2's can be and the negative effect its properties have upon ride comfort and steering feel when conditions aren't in its wheelhouse - something that has a bigger effect upon handling and feel than the FR-3 kit in most circumstances. Who can hope to come within a mile of managing those expectations?

Regardless of the kit’s actual effect upon handling, since I'm already not prepared to create comparative skidpan data, I'm going to jump off the train here. Rather than ruminating over fractional millimeters, do yourself a favor and find somebody nearby with an FR-3 pack whose car you can drive for yourself in the meantime.


............Sometimes I like your posts and think they are very informative othertimes I think you just like to rant. But to correct you if you look at the gt500 information packet that was sent out when the car started coming out it has a 25mm rear sway or 1 inch for the SVTPP.

Now to address your other comments. Do I think 400 dollars is worth an increase in 5% stiffness? No. Is that noticeable? No. The FR3 pack is for not svtpp cars 11-12 cars not ours. The biggest benefit of that pack is the springs and shocks. Why you choose the sways bars to use is beyond me. Now compared to steeda which gives a 10% increase in stiffness over even the thicker Boss LS sway bars I rather have that. And between 60-87% stiffer in the rear than the SVTPP then yes I rather have that. You forget that when engineers are designing these cars the very first thing they find out is the math to see what they are doing is an actual benefit. THEN THEY TEST IT.

If your reasons for doing this was to stay ford racing or shelby which is the same as buying BMR,eibach, w/e, you should have just gone with LS sway bars to match the rest of your boss parts.
2013 shelby gt500 black w/black stripe SVTPP,Recaros,Electronics Package,Glass roof,car cover.

Mods:
35% window tint

nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
Boss x brace, MGW shifter, Boss side exhaust, Corsa black diamond axleback, Lithium battery

#47 OFFLINE   Albino500

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:27 AM

:backtotopic: I believe it to be "watts link".
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1 of 89 Shelby GT-California Editions done in Performance White/Silver Stripes
Converted to " SCCA SMG Class " race car - 2/04/2013

#48 OFFLINE   patrickshelby

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

I just received the WHITELINE watts link.
I am not to the point of bolting it up and finding out all of what Madlock wrote about!
I am doing a slight modification to the kit before (a small bridge) and prepare a new rear axle, dedicated to the watt link.
If I should ever come back to the panhard bar, I will swap rear ends.
To this point all I can say is: The packaging of the WHITELINE is OUTSTANDING.

Attached Files



#49 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:58 AM

:backtotopic: I believe it to be "watts link".


It's actually Watt's linkage - not that it matters a damn bit.

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#50 OFFLINE   svt13

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:04 AM

You 2 need to get it installed and on the street already so we can hear the reviews!
2013 shelby gt500 black w/black stripe SVTPP,Recaros,Electronics Package,Glass roof,car cover.

Mods:
35% window tint

nav-tv rear view camera
Red line hood struts
Front splitter curb alert system
Super snake carbon fiber splitter
APR Performance carbon fiber mirror assembly
JLT CF resonator delete w/blue airaid Filter
Shelby transmission cooler scoope
BMR UCA with Mount, BMR adjustable panhard bar
Bob's billet LCA and bob's oil separator
FRPP springs
HRE p40 w/Michelin Super sport tires


Future mods going on the car soon: Shelby floor and trunk mat, custom made EPCO shifter knob


Mods undecided about:
Boss x brace, MGW shifter, Boss side exhaust, Corsa black diamond axleback, Lithium battery

#51 OFFLINE   Husky44

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

In the meantime, I'm really looking forward to driving my '13 with its upgraded upper and lower control arms and relocation brakets, FR-3 L Springs and 5490-B Sway Bar Kit with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, Shelby Caster/Camber plates and the White Line Watts Link. I'll be driving the car for a day or so before replacing the Panhard Bar with the Watts Link arms - just to have a way to isolate and resolve any potential issues that may require tracing back to a specific source before introducing something so entirely different from the car's OE suspension. After also refinishing and powder-coating each of the components to match, it will hopefully also look as good as I intend it to drive.


Madlock: At the risk of derailing this thread more, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on the handling of the car with the new suspension components only. I'm researching now for my winter mod projects. My primary goal is to get the car to hook better. I'll be swapping tires in the spring, but am unsure if I want to go with bigger rubber, or suspension mods, or if I'm going to need to do both. Your input will help.

To clarify:

Are you still running the stock Goodyears? If new tires, are you still running stock dimensions?

Did the suspension mods have a significant impact on reducing wheel spin?

Other observations?

Thanks,
Greg
2013 GT500 Convertible: Grabber Blue, Black Stripes, SVTPP, NAV, Recaros, Shaker Pro
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1967 Mustang Convertible: Restomod (in progress)--347, TF heads and intake, World Class T5, 8.8 with 4:10s, Cobra 4 wheel disc brakes...

#52 OFFLINE   Albino500

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

It's actually Watt's linkage - not that it matters a damn bit.

Look at the top of the page - you are the one who posted the title to the thread.(anyway it sure doesn't say "Sway Bars")

Patrick - waiting to hear your comments about the installation instructions as well as the install. Good luck my friend.
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CSM#07SGT4755
1 of 89 Shelby GT-California Editions done in Performance White/Silver Stripes
Converted to " SCCA SMG Class " race car - 2/04/2013

#53 OFFLINE   Tob

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

Patrick - if you could...please post a few shots of the bellcrank/propeller. I'm itching to see each component and how they fit together. If I'm seeing things right, WL doesn't use a bearing at the pivot but rather one of their bushings with an inner and outer sleeve. Much different philosophy, for example, then Jim Fay's double bearing inside his prop.

Anyhow, if you could post up photos of those components it would be greatly appreciated.

Tob

On edit...if you have a ruler...what is the center to center distance between the links at the prop? I'd guess around 5 to 6 inches...

Edited by Tob, 22 October 2012 - 12:52 PM.


#54 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:54 PM

I just received the WHITELINE watts link.
I am not to the point of bolting it up and finding out all of what Madlock wrote about!
I am doing a slight modification to the kit before (a small bridge) and prepare a new rear axle, dedicated to the watt link.
If I should ever come back to the panhard bar, I will swap rear ends.
To this point all I can say is: The packaging of the WHITELINE is OUTSTANDING.


You're also going to find, if you have the Track Package, not only will you need to bore a larger cooling inlet port, but you'll ALSO need to have machined a temperature sensor port which Whiteline ignored completely.

Whiteline is supposedly expressing what I hope to be a complete and correct hardware kit, but the other suboptimal properties for Track Package '13s are simply the way things are and will continue to be. Anybody whose car is so-equipped should go into this with open eyes - knowing there's going to be some additional work to make the kit compatible.


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#55 OFFLINE   Albino500

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

Patrick - if you could...please post a few shots of the bellcrank/propeller. I'm itching to see each component and how they fit together. If I'm seeing things right, WL doesn't use a bearing at the pivot but rather one of their bushings with an inner and outer sleeve. Much different philosophy, for example, then Jim Fay's double bearing inside his prop.

Anyhow, if you could post up photos of those components it would be greatly appreciated.

Tob

Patrick - would also like to know if the center sleeve for the propeller which is attached to the "X" plate is welded on or just a press fit along with the two sleeves on the propeller - same thing ? thanks
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CSM#07SGT4755
1 of 89 Shelby GT-California Editions done in Performance White/Silver Stripes
Converted to " SCCA SMG Class " race car - 2/04/2013

#56 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

Everything is welded. Robustness is NOT one of the Whiteline's shortcomings.

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings. But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries. It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.

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#57 OFFLINE   Tob

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:07 PM

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings. But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries. It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.


Kind of funny. I posted elsewhere regarding my dislike of the bushing at the pivot point. In the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing regarding switching to a bearing, were it indeed necessary...

Edited by Tob, 22 October 2012 - 04:08 PM.


#58 OFFLINE   LuckySnake

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

Glad I bought Fays2 for my 07, I think the quality of the Fays looks better and Jim's customer service can't be beat. I have had zero problems. Fays2 unit's built in the good ol US of A by Americans.

#59 OFFLINE   Snoopy49

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

Everything is welded. Robustness is NOT one of the Whiteline's shortcomings.

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings. But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries. It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.


Is it possible to install a zerk fitting to aid in lubing the bushing?

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#60 OFFLINE   Madlock

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Kind of funny. I posted elsewhere regarding my dislike of the bushing at the pivot point. In the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing regarding switching to a bearing, were it indeed necessary...


I figure there's no sense disliking what I haven't even driven on yet that hasn't even had a chance to fail. The good news is that an alternative is easily made.

WRT Whiteline versus Fays2/Shelby, there's certainly nothing intrinsic to a Fays unit that I would dismiss out of hand, though I'm not axle clamp fan. Jim Fays service is top notch but there's little comparison in terms of robustness, being as close as possible to the theoretical ideal, elegant design simplicity, clearance and the list goes on.

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