152 replies to this topic

[Madlock]

I must say, after receiving and inspecting the White Line Watts Link, i'm hugely impressed.  Every component is weapons grade - and FAR more robust than the product description pictures are able to depict.  I have NO concerns whatsoever about its robustness.  And being about as elegant and "pure" a Watts design as exists for the S197 chassis, I'm very much looking forward to giving one a whirl.

My only regret SO far are the yellow bushings.  It would've been much nicer if they were a more conventional Ford Blue, Red or Black.  Otherwise, the entire unit is out for re-powder coat to color key it to the rest of my up-rated suspension components, and I look forward to driving the car next week with everything moved up a notch.or two suspensionwise.

[svt13]

Post a review here when it's installed. I can't order mine now since AM is sold out.

[patrickshelby]

svt13, on 17 October 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Post a review here when it's installed. I can't order mine now since AM is sold out.

Vorschlag racing is a WhiteLine dealer!!! And they are RELIABLE and KNOWLEDGEABLE.
http://www.vorshlag....products_id=526

[ViperNC]

Now I'm on the fence again.  Was going to get the Shelby billet aluminum watts link made by Fays and now have read about the White Line.  Hard choice.  I'll be curious to read more reviews on both.

[svt13]

ViperNC, on 17 October 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Now I'm on the fence again.  Was going to get the Shelby billet aluminum watts link made by Fays and now have read about the White Line.  Hard choice.  I'll be curious to read more reviews on both.

The billet alumnium would be pure waste of money unless you are ok paying 400 extra dollars just for the bling factor. The whiteline product is superior and cost less.

[svt13]

patrickshelby, on 17 October 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Vorschlag racing is a WhiteLine dealer!!! And they are RELIABLE and KNOWLEDGEABLE.
http://www.vorshlag....products_id=526

Yea I talked to them they said its the best thing ever blah blah blah. I want normal people reviews who don't gain from telling whether its a good product or bad.

Though upon reading this article I did not know this is 29 pounds. Thats basically the same weight as the fays which people always complain about it being too heavy. Thats interesting I thought maybe this would be like 20 pounds or something.

Edited by svt13, 17 October 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[patrickshelby]

svt13, on 17 October 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yea I talked to them they said its the best thing ever blah blah blah. I want normal people reviews who don't gain from telling whether its a good product or bad.

You wrote: " I can't order mine now since AM is sold out..." That is why I suggested Vorschlag. I thought your decision was made...
Of course I understand now that it was not.
I will get mine (Whiteline from Vorschlag) in a couple days.
I'll let you know.

[svt13]

patrickshelby, on 17 October 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

You wrote: " I can't order mine now since AM is sold out..." That is why I suggested Vorschlag. I thought your decision was made...
Of course I understand now that it was not.
I will get mine (Whiteline from Vorschlag) in a couple days.
I'll let you know.

Oh I see. Yes your right that does seem confusing how I said it. I like AM because I have a code for a 10% discount. Idk if vorschlag will offer the same.

But could you also take pics of the inside of their differential cover and the shelby differential cover by chance? I'd like to see the differences since they allow for cooling.

[patrickshelby]

I will :-)
BTW Vorschlag sells it for 899.- (retail is 999.-)
There you are with those 10%...

[svt13]

patrickshelby, on 17 October 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

I will :-)
BTW Vorschlag sells it for 899.- (retail is 999.-)
There you are with those 10%...

AM sells for 899 too so 10% off means 810. All these 10% adds up lol

[Madlock]

svt13, on 17 October 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

The billet alumnium would be pure waste of money unless you are ok paying 400 extra dollars just for the bling factor. The whiteline product is superior and cost less.

"Pure waste of money"?  On what basis?  To whom?  Depending upon when a person buys one and available promotions at the time, the price difference CAN be negligible.  And "superior" on what basis?  People with a 9" axle would have one hell of a time running the White Line product and for somebody SO vexed by using an SCT to change his speedo's tire size calibration, you're awfully quick to go cracking-upon your differential and replacing its cover with something aftermarket.  

With such a penchant for empirical information, strange to see the difference in how the systems attach, their ease of servicing and removal, weight and durability or performance dismissed as "bling" so summarily.  What about people who prefer to have their vehicles exclusively Shelby or Ford Racing in their components?  Are they "blingers" too?  With the exception of near-universal reports that watts links of pretty-much ALL known types are a tremendous improvement over a panhard bar, there's been almost no relative comparison data whatsoever between them.

svt13, on 17 October 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yea I talked to them they said its the best thing ever blah blah blah. I want normal people reviews who don't gain from telling whether its a good product or bad.

Though upon reading this article I did not know this is 29 pounds. Thats basically the same weight as the fays [sic] which people always complain about it being too heavy. Thats interesting I thought maybe this would be like 20 pounds or something.

But wait, I thought you'd already made up your mind?  

It's 29 lbs because it includes a differential cover - and a rather blingy one at that given how substantial it needs to support the pivot.  Where has there been any complaints about the Fays units based upon their weight?  The billet unit happens to be lighter, but the intrinsic downsides to the Fays units have absolutely nothing to do with weight - though given the GT500's relative imbalance, a terrific case could be made for a few extra pounds improving balance more than they harm power/weight.

The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds.

It'll be interesting to see what the first reports of White Line's unique "Elastomer" bushings hold forth versus urethane, Delrin or any of the other exotic materials used versus spherical ends the Fays are very much weapons grade in that respect.

I wonder how many "reviews" it will take...

[svt13]

Madlock, on 17 October 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

"Pure waste of money"?  On what basis?  To whom?  Depending upon when a person buys one and available promotions at the time, the price difference CAN be negligible.  And "superior" on what basis?  People with a 9" axle would have one hell of a time running the White Line product and for somebody SO vexed by using an SCT to change his speedo's tire size calibration, you're awfully quick to go cracking-upon your differential and replacing its cover with something aftermarket.  

With such a penchant for empirical information, strange to see the difference in how the systems attach, their ease of servicing and removal, weight and durability or performance dismissed as "bling" so summarily.  What about people who prefer to have their vehicles exclusively Shelby or Ford Racing in their components?  Are they "blingers" too?  With the exception of near-universal reports that watts links of pretty-much ALL known types are a tremendous improvement over a panhard bar, there's been almost no relative comparison data whatsoever between them.



But wait, I thought you'd already made up your mind?  

It's 29 lbs because it includes a differential cover - and a rather blingy one at that given how substantial it needs to support the pivot.  Where has there been any complaints about the Fays units based upon their weight?  The billet unit happens to be lighter, but the intrinsic downsides to the Fays units have absolutely nothing to do with weight - though given the GT500's relative imbalance, a terrific case could be made for a few extra pounds improving balance more than they harm power/weight.

The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds.

It'll be interesting to see what the first reports of White Line's unique "Elastomer" bushings hold forth versus urethane, Delrin or any of the other exotic materials used versus spherical ends the Fays are very much weapons grade in that respect.

I wonder how many "reviews" it will take...

Ok I'm referring to actual quality of the piece. Not its worth if it has the shelby name on it or not. And yea if there are sales then the price difference would decrease not be neglible. I am saying whiteline is superior because given from everyone else's reviews and other discussions differential mounted watts links are usually better in the fact they don't break. People talk about how steeda and fays break, but never once I have heard of a griggs unit for example breaking. But then thats the problem with the others and why the fays was so awesome. While it may not be more robust it was apparently quiet, easy to install, and worked.

Now if the whiteline is just as quiet and is 100% bolt in like the fays and has the benefits of a differential mounting point then it is in fact better. And why are you even argueing this fact when you bought it yourself? You obviously bought it over the fays for a reason.

The billet unit is 2 pounds lighter. Now that is something neglible. And it may not even be stronger given that it isn't one solid piece and 3 different pieces instead. But again not enough people buy it to test it to see the differences.

You urself once again started a thread on that topic trying to find out the differences and not enough people wilth experience could comment on it. And yea I rather change a differential cover then mess with my cars computer. Once I plug that SCT in then its documented on the cars computer. If my differential cover breaks its very easy to switch back to stock with no impact on warranty and no trace of an aftermarket one.

And as far as deciding on the watts link I'm about 95% towards whiteline. I am waiting for you and petey to post reviews before I make my deicsion. If both of you say its good then I'll get it.

Edited by svt13, 17 October 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[03 DSG Snake]

Whiteline is a promising looking piece. Excited to see more get installed and the feedback that ensues.

[Tob]

I've done quite a bit of research in terms of available (as well as previously available) Watt's link kits for the S197 chassis. From Griggs, Whiteline, Steeda, Fays, Techo, Saleen, etc, they all have theoretical advantages as well as disadvantages. Some have a fixed roll center or not via the body or the axle cover. Some have little adjustment (or none at all) of the roll center while others offer quite a bit of adjustment range. Some use predominately steel while others make judicious use of aluminum. Some are quite comfortable with single shear while others favor double shear. Some are 100% bolt on while others require welding.

A lot of theory at play as well as differing philosophies. In the end, it is simply a matter of choice - however personal.

I'm a big fan of using quality rod ends. I like to see items in double shear where possible. And I have no problem with aluminum if it can be shown that the dimensions chosen meet a specific criteria that hinders neither performance or relative strength. That said, I think it good that WL has entered the market  if for anything to offer more choice. And what I think is important for potential end users to focus on is the type of performance they are looking for and how much they are willing to compromise ('soft' bushings for minimal NVH, etc).

What I'd really like to see are the development pieces that you just know that SVT played with when developing the 2013 GT500, Boss, etc. The panhard bar argument won out in the end. Just another item in the long line of parts in the  OEM void that the aftermarket is so willing to fill.

Tob

[svt13]

Tob, on 17 October 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I've done quite a bit of research in terms of available (as well as previously available) Watt's link kits for the S197 chassis. From Griggs, Whiteline, Steeda, Fays, Techo, Saleen, etc, they all have theoretical advantages as well as disadvantages. Some have a fixed roll center or not via the body or the axle cover. Some have little adjustment (or none at all) of the roll center while others offer quite a bit of adjustment range. Some use predominately steel while others make judicious use of aluminum. Some are quite comfortable with single shear while others favor double shear. Some are 100% bolt on while others require welding.

A lot of theory at play as well as differing philosophies. In the end, it is simply a matter of choice - however personal.

I'm a big fan of using quality rod ends. I like to see items in double shear where possible. And I have no problem with aluminum if it can be shown that the dimensions chosen meet a specific criteria that hinders neither performance or relative strength. That said, I think it good that WL has entered the market  if for anything to offer more choice. And what I think is important for potential end users to focus on is the type of performance they are looking for and how much they are willing to compromise ('soft' bushings for minimal NVH, etc).

What I'd really like to see are the development pieces that you just know that SVT played with when developing the 2013 GT500, Boss, etc. The panhard bar argument won out in the end. Just another item in the long line of parts in the  OEM void that the aftermarket is so willing to fill.

Tob

You think SVT played with the idea of a watts link? I think a watts link made by SVT or FRPP would be awesome.

Edited by svt13, 17 October 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[ViperNC]

Madlock - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."

Would like to know more about this.  Does this apply only to the steel versions for Fays?  And yes, I have bling disease.  The billet aluminum is not only functional, but a show piece as well.  I like the clean design.  Not sure I'm thrilled about the "clunking at low speeds".  Hoping that is not a characteristic of the aluminum piece.

Edited by ViperNC, 21 October 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Madlock]

ViperNC, on 21 October 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

SVT13 - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."

Would like to know more about this.  Does this apply only to the steel versions for Fays?  And yes, I have bling disease.  The billet aluminum is not only functional, but a show piece as well.  I like the clean design.  Not sure I'm thrilled about the "clunking at low speeds".  Hoping that is not a characteristic of the aluminum piece.

There's no functional difference between the billet or tubular designs.  The billet piece simply replaces the welded and powder coated structure - albeit with an additional adjustment point setting.  The reported "clunking" comes from it spherical ends rather than bushings.  On one hand, spherical ends are inherently subject to less deflection or binding - a good thing.  A certain amount of NVH under certain circumstances is the downside.

It was a tough choice for me - with 2 cars to equip.  For the first, I ultimately chose White Line - despite my desire to remain Shelby/Ford Racing-exclusive.  I may use a Fays unit in the second car, but I went with the White Line on my first because it represents about as close to the theoretical design ideal as I can envision.  To accommodate the "bling" factor, I simply had the White Line unit re-powder coated to match the rest of the underside's control arm/mount color scheme.

I'm being very careful in having the White Line unit installed because it's going on a '13 with the Track Package and differential cooling system.  The OE axle cover's cooling ports are oriented E-W while the White Line unit's taps are N-S, so I'm being especially careful to ensure the plumbing is routed in such a manner that it has a clean and clear run without any chance of inadvertently restricting coolant flow.

After being leery about the White Line unit at first because of the amount of stress it seemed to place on such a small area, my anxiety was quickly quelled the moment I actually saw and held the parts.  The differential cover is beautifully machined and phenomenally robust - as is the pivot mount that spreads the load over 6 attachment points on the differential cover and ultimately the entire differential cover mount.

My ONLY regret so far is that, rather than using a more traditional or neutral color, White Line likes its yellow "elastomer" bushings - a branding thing I can learn to live with.

I test drive my car tomorrow after upgrading all of the control arms and mounts and installing the components of the FR-3 Handling Pack that are relevant to the '13 with SVTPP (basically everything but new dampers).  After ensuring it delivers the kind of ride and handling properties I want, the White Line link will go in Tuesday or Wednesday so I can also have a better sense of which upgrades deliver what characteristic so I know what to reverse or do differently if they prove undesirable.

I'm really looking forward to the FR-3 pack with the dual-mode BIlsteins.  Especially with the additional engine and cooling system mass, I'm particularly looking forward to bringing down the CG and doing some comparative runs.

[svt13]

Madlock, on 21 October 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

There's no functional difference between the billet or tubular designs.  The billet piece simply replaces the welded and powder coated structure - albeit with an additional adjustment point setting.  The reported "clunking" comes from it spherical ends rather than bushings.  On one hand, spherical ends are inherently subject to less deflection or binding - a good thing.  A certain amount of NVH under certain circumstances is the downside.

It was a tough choice for me - with 2 cars to equip.  For the first, I ultimately chose White Line - despite my desire to remain Shelby/Ford Racing-exclusive.  I may use a Fays unit in the second car, but I went with the White Line on my first because it represents about as close to the theoretical design ideal as I can envision.  To accommodate the "bling" factor, I simply had the White Line unit re-powder coated to match the rest of the underside's control arm/mount color scheme.

I'm being very careful in having the White Line unit installed because it's going on a '13 with the Track Package and differential cooling system.  The OE axle cover's cooling ports are oriented E-W while the White Line unit's taps are N-S, so I'm being especially careful to ensure the plumbing is routed in such a manner that it has a clean and clear run without any chance of inadvertently restricting coolant flow.

After being leery about the White Line unit at first because of the amount of stress it seemed to place on such a small area, my anxiety was quickly quelled the moment I actually saw and held the parts.  The differential cover is beautifully machined and phenomenally robust - as is the pivot mount that spreads the load over 6 attachment points on the differential cover and ultimately the entire differential cover mount.

My ONLY regret so far is that, rather than using a more traditional or neutral color, White Line likes its yellow "elastomer" bushings - a branding thing I can learn to live with.

I test drive my car tomorrow after upgrading all of the control arms and mounts and installing the components of the FR-3 Handling Pack that are relevant to the '13 with SVTPP (basically everything but new dampers).  After ensuring it delivers the kind of ride and handling properties I want, the White Line link will go in Tuesday or Wednesday so I can also have a better sense of which upgrades deliver what characteristic so I know what to reverse or do differently if they prove undesirable.

I'm really looking forward to the FR-3 pack with the dual-mode BIlsteins.  Especially with the additional engine and cooling system mass, I'm particularly looking forward to bringing down the CG and doing some comparative runs.

I forgot to mention to you that engineer from Ford racing finally emailed me back. They said the FR3 sway bars are not better than the SVTPP 13 sway bars. He said they are the same. You may want to return them and look towards steeda and H&R because as of now they are the only ones which are better, steeda being the best.

[Tob]

ViperNC, on 21 October 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Madlock - "The most notable, and only significant criticisms I've seen of the Fays units to date is the use of axle clamps that are inherently less secure unless welded which makes them irreversible - or nominal clunking at low speeds."

They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.

[Albino500]

Tob, on 21 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.

SO TRUE