152 replies to this topic

[Madlock]

Tob, on 21 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

They are only irreversible to those that don't weld. Some 'quality' time with a zip wheel/die grinder along with a little smoothing and you'd never know where the welds were placed. Not as quick and easy as removing a clamp but certainly not something that can't be undone.

Welding and grinding is a threshold I'd prefer to leave uncrossed.  Except on a car I ran predominately on the track, I'm not sure I'd like to install anything I knew would make me wish I hadn't at some point.  I'd probably just replaceme the entire axle assembly which is available dirt cheap while also providing the option to have two very different cars, with different final drive gearing and different differentials biased toward the occasion.  I love how modular these cars can be.

But back to the broader topic - and the White Line Watts Link in particular.  My car's been on the lift all weekend to make its suspension weapons grade.  The White Line unit is beautifully-designed but certainly not entirely perfect, at least at the point of actually putting it on the car.

I was disappointed to learn that various hardware components were either incorrectly-supplied or missing altogether.  I was even more surprised to discover that many of the threads weren't very cleanly tapped and required a good amount of secondary refining and clean-up.  But the biggest surprise was the differential cooling taps.

The differential cover is supplied with its own plugs that fit very nicely.  However, despite the return port being perfectly-sized to accommodate the OE plumbing hardware, the inlet was far too small and is now being re-tapped to the proper diameter to accommodate the OE hardware and avoid any kind of cooling flow restriction a cobbled-together remedy might create.

Other niggles include Installation Instructions that don't necessarily correspond to the types and sizes of hardware provided and White Line's differential cover not accommodating the standard differential vent, requiring an alternate to be tapped on the axle.  The last issue (to this point) has been the need to reroute certain lines to provide completely unimpeded range of motion, something the included documentation could've been much more useful had it mentioned.

Fortunately, my tech is phenomenally fastidious and discovered these issues in mocking-up the entire assembly before trying to put it on the car.  None of them are issues that can't and won't be overcome, but it's still rather disappointing when such a dear product isn't "right" out of the box.  Hopefully White Line takes notice and plans to remedy these issues in the future.

In the meantime, I'm really looking forward to driving my '13 with its upgraded upper and lower control arms and relocation brakets, FR-3 L Springs and 5490-B Sway Bar Kit with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, Shelby Caster/Camber plates and the White Line Watts Link.  I'll be driving the car for a day or so before replacing the Panhard Bar with the Watts Link arms - just to have a way to isolate and resolve any potential issues that may require tracing back to a specific source before introducing something so entirely different from the car's OE suspension.  After also refinishing and powder-coating each of the components to match, it will hopefully also look as good as I intend it to drive.

[Madlock]

svt13, on 21 October 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

I forgot to mention to you that engineer from Ford racing finally emailed me back. They said the FR3 sway bars are not better than the SVTPP 13 sway bars. He said they are the same. You may want to return them and look towards steeda and H&R because as of now they are the only ones which are better, steeda being the best.

Strange - as not only did I receive very different information from Ford Racing, but comparing the actual 5490-B Kit Sway Bars to the OE parts proved the components to be equally different.

[svt13]

Madlock, on 21 October 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Strange - as not only did I receive very different information from Ford Racing, but comparing the actual 5490-B Kit Sway Bars to the OE parts proved the components to be equally different.

Post pics. They told me they aren't going to do testing with them because they are almost the same.

The stock SVTPP bars are 34.6mm front and 25 rear. The FR3 bars are 35mm front and 24 mm rear.

[Madlock]

svt13, on 22 October 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Post pics. They told me they aren't going to do testing with them because they are almost the same.

The stock SVTPP bars are 34.6mm front and 25 rear. The FR3 bars are 35mm front and 24 mm rear.

You're obviously comfortable and confident with the information you've received.  If you already know they’re different, what do you expect from pictures?  They're sway bars.  Need to see a millimeter?  It’s the little tick on the metric side of a ruler.

FR develops kits provide a particular combinations of properties very similarly to how OE parts are chosen for theirs.  SVT doesn't "test" to see how DIFFERENT items are.  It "tests" ONLY if properties are different enough to create negative effects like exceeding design tolerances or creating bump steer.

Baseline 2011-12 Sway Bars are 33.2 and 23mm.  The SVTPP's rear bar is 24mm.  How different do you expect dimensions to be relative to their resulting characteristics?  Ask Ford for pictures of the '12 and '13 sway bars and to explain bothering with creating an entirely new component over a millimeter.

Do yourself a BIG favor.  Rather than kvetching over numbers and pictures, go drive a 2011+ car with an FR-3 pack in any kind of performance setting and see how differently it handles than a stock suspension.  Hell, compare the same car with and without the SVTPP.   (Don't forget the pictures).  Or just do the math.  Even if the difference is ONLY proportionate to the diameters, it's a 1% difference up-front, 4% in the rear and 5% overall which is a pretty radical balance shift.

Just how much of a numerical difference do you expect before having VERY tangible effects?

You seem more fixated upon numbers rather than the effect they have or, more importantly, the outcome you hope to achieve.  “Better” is too ambiguous and subjective an expectation for even the whole of SVT to engineer against.  Not all differences are “better” in every environment and many degrade certain properties like everyday ride to enhance others like performance at the limits.

You've just discovered how lousy F:1 G-2's can be and the negative effect its properties have upon ride comfort and steering feel when conditions aren't in its wheelhouse - something that has a bigger effect upon handling and feel than the FR-3 kit in most circumstances.  Who can hope to come within a mile of managing those expectations?  

Regardless of the kit’s actual effect upon handling, since I'm already not prepared to create comparative skidpan data, I'm going to jump off the train here.  Rather than ruminating over fractional millimeters, do yourself a favor and find somebody nearby with an FR-3 pack whose car you can drive for yourself in the meantime.

[Albino500]

Madlock, on 21 October 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Welding and grinding is a threshold I'd prefer to leave uncrossed.  Except on a car I ran predominately on the track, I'm not sure I'd like to install anything I knew would make me wish I hadn't at some point.  I'd probably just replaceme the entire axle assembly which is available dirt cheap while also providing the option to have two very different cars, with different final drive gearing and different differentials biased toward the occasion.  I love how modular these cars can be.

But back to the broader topic - and the White Line Watts Link in particular.  My car's been on the lift all weekend to make its suspension weapons grade.  The White Line unit is beautifully-designed but certainly not entirely perfect, at least at the point of actually putting it on the car.

I was disappointed to learn that various hardware components were either incorrectly-supplied or missing altogether.  I was even more surprised to discover that many of the threads weren't very cleanly tapped and required a good amount of secondary refining and clean-up.  But the biggest surprise was the differential cooling taps.

The differential cover is supplied with its own plugs that fit very nicely.  However, despite the return port being perfectly-sized to accommodate the OE plumbing hardware, the inlet was far too small and is now being re-tapped to the proper diameter to accommodate the OE hardware and avoid any kind of cooling flow restriction a cobbled-together remedy might create.

Other niggles include Installation Instructions that don't necessarily correspond to the types and sizes of hardware provided and White Line's differential cover not accommodating the standard differential vent, requiring an alternate to be tapped on the axle.  The last issue (to this point) has been the need to reroute certain lines to provide completely unimpeded range of motion, something the included documentation could've been much more useful had it mentioned.

None of them are issues that can't and won't be overcome, but it's still rather disappointing when such a dear product isn't "right" out of the box.  Hopefully White Line takes notice and plans to remedy these issues in the future.

  Thanks for the update observations of the WL watts link setup - hope that you can provide some more incites once it gets on the car.  

[svt13]

Madlock, on 22 October 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

You're obviously comfortable and confident with the information you've received.  If you already know they’re different, what do you expect from pictures?  They're sway bars.  Need to see a millimeter?  It’s the little tick on the metric side of a ruler.

FR develops kits provide a particular combinations of properties very similarly to how OE parts are chosen for theirs.  SVT doesn't "test" to see how DIFFERENT items are.  It "tests" ONLY if properties are different enough to create negative effects like exceeding design tolerances or creating bump steer.

Baseline 2011-12 Sway Bars are 33.2 and 23mm.  The SVTPP's rear bar is 24mm.  How different do you expect dimensions to be relative to their resulting characteristics?  Ask Ford for pictures of the '12 and '13 sway bars and to explain bothering with creating an entirely new component over a millimeter.

Do yourself a BIG favor.  Rather than kvetching over numbers and pictures, go drive a 2011+ car with an FR-3 pack in any kind of performance setting and see how differently it handles than a stock suspension.  Hell, compare the same car with and without the SVTPP.   (Don't forget the pictures).  Or just do the math.  Even if the difference is ONLY proportionate to the diameters, it's a 1% difference up-front, 4% in the rear and 5% overall which is a pretty radical balance shift.

Just how much of a numerical difference do you expect before having VERY tangible effects?

You seem more fixated upon numbers rather than the effect they have or, more importantly, the outcome you hope to achieve.  “Better” is too ambiguous and subjective an expectation for even the whole of SVT to engineer against.  Not all differences are “better” in every environment and many degrade certain properties like everyday ride to enhance others like performance at the limits.

You've just discovered how lousy F:1 G-2's can be and the negative effect its properties have upon ride comfort and steering feel when conditions aren't in its wheelhouse - something that has a bigger effect upon handling and feel than the FR-3 kit in most circumstances.  Who can hope to come within a mile of managing those expectations?  

Regardless of the kit’s actual effect upon handling, since I'm already not prepared to create comparative skidpan data, I'm going to jump off the train here.  Rather than ruminating over fractional millimeters, do yourself a favor and find somebody nearby with an FR-3 pack whose car you can drive for yourself in the meantime.

............Sometimes I like your posts and think they are very informative othertimes I think you just like to rant. But to correct you if you look at the gt500 information packet that was sent out when the car started coming out it has a 25mm rear sway or 1 inch for the SVTPP.

Now to address your other comments. Do I think 400 dollars is worth an increase in 5% stiffness? No. Is that noticeable? No. The FR3 pack is for not svtpp cars 11-12 cars not ours. The biggest benefit of that pack is the springs and shocks. Why you choose the sways bars to use is beyond me. Now compared to steeda which gives a 10% increase in stiffness over even the thicker Boss LS sway bars I rather have that. And between 60-87% stiffer in the rear than the SVTPP then yes I rather have that. You forget that when engineers are designing these cars the very first thing they find out is the math to see what they are doing is an actual benefit. THEN THEY TEST IT.

If your reasons for doing this was to stay ford racing or shelby which is the same as buying BMR,eibach, w/e, you should have just gone with LS sway bars to match the rest of your boss parts.

[Albino500]

  I believe it to be "watts link".

[patrickshelby]

I just received the WHITELINE watts link.
I am not to the point of bolting it up and finding out all of what Madlock wrote about!
I am doing a slight modification to the kit before (a small bridge) and prepare a new rear axle, dedicated to the watt link.
If I should ever come back to the panhard bar, I will swap rear ends.
To this point all I can say is: The packaging of the WHITELINE is OUTSTANDING.

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[Madlock]

Albino500, on 22 October 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

  I believe it to be "watts link".

It's actually Watt's linkage - not that it matters a damn bit.

[svt13]

You 2 need to get it installed and on the street already so we can hear the reviews!

[Husky44]

Madlock, on 21 October 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

In the meantime, I'm really looking forward to driving my '13 with its upgraded upper and lower control arms and relocation brakets, FR-3 L Springs and 5490-B Sway Bar Kit with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, Shelby Caster/Camber plates and the White Line Watts Link.  I'll be driving the car for a day or so before replacing the Panhard Bar with the Watts Link arms - just to have a way to isolate and resolve any potential issues that may require tracing back to a specific source before introducing something so entirely different from the car's OE suspension.  After also refinishing and powder-coating each of the components to match, it will hopefully also look as good as I intend it to drive.

Madlock:  At the risk of derailing this thread more, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on the handling of the car with the new suspension components only.  I'm researching now for my winter mod projects.  My primary goal is to get the car to hook better.  I'll be swapping tires in the spring, but am unsure if I want to go with bigger rubber, or suspension mods, or if I'm going to need to do both.  Your input will help.

To clarify:

Are you still running the stock Goodyears?  If new tires, are you still running stock dimensions?

Did the suspension mods have a significant impact on reducing wheel spin?

Other observations?

Thanks,
Greg

[Albino500]

Madlock, on 22 October 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's actually Watt's linkage - not that it matters a damn bit.

Look at the top of the page - you are the one who posted the title to the thread.(anyway it sure doesn't say "Sway Bars")

Patrick - waiting to hear your comments about the installation instructions as well as the install. Good luck my friend.

[Tob]

Patrick - if you could...please post a few shots of the bellcrank/propeller. I'm itching to see each component and how they fit together. If I'm seeing things right, WL doesn't use a bearing at the pivot but rather one of their bushings with an inner and outer sleeve. Much different philosophy, for example, then Jim Fay's double bearing inside his prop.

Anyhow, if you could post up photos of those components it would be greatly appreciated.

Tob

On edit...if you have a ruler...what is the center to center distance between the links at the prop? I'd guess around 5 to 6 inches...

Edited by Tob, 22 October 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Madlock]

patrickshelby, on 22 October 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I just received the WHITELINE watts link.
I am not to the point of bolting it up and finding out all of what Madlock wrote about!
I am doing a slight modification to the kit before (a small bridge) and prepare a new rear axle, dedicated to the watt link.
If I should ever come back to the panhard bar, I will swap rear ends.
To this point all I can say is: The packaging of the WHITELINE is OUTSTANDING.

You're also going to find, if you have the Track Package, not only will you need to bore a larger cooling inlet port, but you'll ALSO need to have machined a temperature sensor port which Whiteline ignored completely.

Whiteline is supposedly expressing what I hope to be a complete and correct hardware kit, but the other suboptimal properties for Track Package '13s are simply the way things are and will continue to be.  Anybody whose car is so-equipped should go into this with open eyes - knowing there's going to be some additional work to make the kit compatible.

[Albino500]

Tob, on 22 October 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Patrick - if you could...please post a few shots of the bellcrank/propeller. I'm itching to see each component and how they fit together. If I'm seeing things right, WL doesn't use a bearing at the pivot but rather one of their bushings with an inner and outer sleeve. Much different philosophy, for example, then Jim Fay's double bearing inside his prop.

Anyhow, if you could post up photos of those components it would be greatly appreciated.

Tob

Patrick - would also like to know if the center sleeve for the propeller which is attached to the "X" plate is welded on or just a press fit along with the two sleeves on the propeller - same thing ? thanks

[Madlock]

Everything is welded.  Robustness is NOT one of the Whiteline's shortcomings.

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings.  But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries.  It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.

[Tob]

Madlock, on 22 October 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings.  But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries.  It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.

Kind of funny. I posted elsewhere regarding my dislike of the bushing at the pivot point. In the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing regarding switching to a bearing, were it indeed necessary...

Edited by Tob, 22 October 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[LuckySnake]

Glad I bought Fays2 for my 07, I think the quality of the Fays looks better and Jim's customer service can't be beat. I have had zero problems. Fays2 unit's built in the good ol US of A by Americans.

[Snoopy49]

Madlock, on 22 October 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Everything is welded.  Robustness is NOT one of the Whiteline's shortcomings.

At the end of the day, the propeller pivots on a bushing rather than bearings.  But everything is so easily accessible that swapping out a bushing if it were ever to wear out is NOT one of my worries.  It even allows the possibly of bushings of different materials to suit specific preferences.

Even if one had an affinity for bearings or an aversion to bushings he just couldn't overcome, the design is straightforward enough that milling a propeller for bearings would require very little.

Is it possible to install a zerk fitting to aid in lubing the bushing?

[Madlock]

Tob, on 22 October 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Kind of funny. I posted elsewhere regarding my dislike of the bushing at the pivot point. In the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing regarding switching to a bearing, were it indeed necessary...

I figure there's no sense disliking what I haven't even driven on yet that hasn't even had a chance to fail.  The good news is that an alternative is easily made.

WRT Whiteline versus Fays2/Shelby, there's certainly nothing intrinsic to a Fays unit that I would dismiss out of hand, though I'm not axle clamp fan.  Jim Fays service is top notch but there's little comparison in terms of robustness, being as close as possible to the theoretical ideal, elegant design simplicity, clearance and the list goes on.