174 replies to this topic

[AndyGJ]

I finally got the call from the installer, and I'm dropping the SGT off at 8:30 am on Tuesday (12/18) and should be done with everything by Wednesday....I'll post up my results ASAP.

In the meantime, I'm finishing off the SGT Front Brake Cooling kit today.  I also just received my Steeda Adjustible Panhard and Panhard Bar Brace that I'm installing this afternoon as well!!!!

Can anyone comment on how much handling improvement I would get by adding the Shelby Rear Lower Control arms?  I'm looking for cornering improvement not drag style performance.

Andy.

Edited by AndyGJ, 15 December 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[AndyGJ]

So....here is an update for everyone....

I arranged to drop my car off at 8:30 am - mind you, 30 minutes before they open.  I place the keys in the drop box, jump into the car with one of my employees who I "convinced" to drive out of his way to come retrieve me, and then offi to work....All this on Tuesday morning.  Since I was also without a vehicle, he had to also drive me 15 miles back to my house later that night....I now owe him a tank of gas.

I called the shop at 9:30 am to make sure they knew where my SCT tuner was in the vehicle and to make sure that they will save every one of the take-off parts.  I asked about completion time & date so that I could arrange for a ride into the office from my house, then the reverse trip back to the shop later in the day when completed to pick up my vehicle and get it home.  I was told that they were just finishing the fine tuning on a Corvette, and then mine was next in the shop...should be early the next day (Wednesday - today) when completed.  If there would be any delay, then it would be on the tuning side since all the tuning goes through one primary person in the shop and he is high in demand.  Hence the reason that they said it could take two days from start to finish for the Shorty headers, UDP, and motor mounts.  Great, I replied.  I told him I'd follow up later on Wednesday.

OK - so today I'm anxiously waiting for a call to say come and get the SGT....but, by almost 3 pm I figured that I had better call.  After a long hold...I knew it didn't look good.  I was told that they ran into some problems with the Corvette, so my car will be in shortly.  When I asked about when it would be done, I was told that they were hoping to have it done by the end of this week which is Saturday for them...I'm already booked full with commitments (some work related) for Saturday, they are closed Monday, Tuesday is Christ's day (they better not be working), and then I'm out of town until Jan 3rd.

Then it occurs to me...If they can't have a 2 day job done by end of day tomorrow (Thursday) then that means they have not even started on my vehicle.  So I call them back...and correct, they have not even started on my vehicle but they ask if they could call me on Friday to let me know if they will finish by Saturday.  I told them no way since I can't do a pickup on Saturday and I can't wait until Friday to find out.

After a long hold, I'm told that they will promise to deliver by Friday at 5 pm, to which I tell them i don't mind picking it up and bringing it back after the first of the year so that they don't rush and botch the job.  They assured me that it will be fine.

I have half a mind to drive over tomorrow morning and see if they have even started on my vehicle.  If not, then I think I might be tempted to just pick it up and take it home...I don't know if I really like how this is starting off.

AM I BEING TOO PICKY HERE?

Andy.

[EL SHELBY]

I would cut them a little slack unless you feel they are deliberately misleading you. Imagine if it was your SGT that was requiring additional time to make right. You wouldn't want them cutting corners just so they can get the next car in the shop. If they are storing your SGT outside then I would be inclined to picking it up until they are ready but it sounds like the logistics for you in getting to the shop and work/home takes some effort. There is no guarentee that waiting until after the 1st of the year that they will be able accommodate your schedule any easier.

I was in a some what simular situation with the Dealer for some warranty work on my SGT. Every day for four days I was told 'they would get to it tomorrow'. I picked up my SGT on the 5th day and told them to call me when they were ready. They where storing my SGT outside and took no responsibility if it was damaged by anything other than an employee. They called me a day later and fortunitly getting to and from the dealer took less than 20min.

Are you being too picky? No. But, when doing custom mods there are no guarentees on ease of completion.

[ilmor]

Well, you want to get it done, and have gone this far. If it were me I would continue to work with them and get thru the ordeal.

[andrewnagle1964]

Be patient, every time I have work done I expect it to take longer (than they say) and I never want to rush the shop. (fortunate the SGT is not my DD)

Andrew

[AndyGJ]

I'm glad mine is not my DD either, but I was just concerned about them rushing just to meet a Friday delivery deadline.  I'd much rather bring it back and have them do the work at a regular pace after the first of the new year instead of rushing and botching the job.  They acted like they were afraid to lose the business if I pulled the car back, but I just don't want any problems with the install.

As luck would have it, I called yesterday evening to see if it was in fact on schedule for a Friday PM pickup time, and they said that all the mechanical install work was done and all that was left was the dyno tuning to be done this morning!!  Good thing they worked on it yesterday as the weather was aweful here in ATL and that means it was indoors for most if not all day.

I hope to have some really good news and dyno numbers for before and after to report later today!!!

Andy.

[AndyGJ]

Well....I have my car back.

My initial impression is that I'm not really thrilled with my end results in several ways.

Before the new headers, I LOVED the sound of my SGT with the KR mufflers.  Now, it sounds a full octive higher and very raspy...that deep, throaty, mean sound is gone.  It is definitely smoother exhaust coming out the tailpipes, and that drastically changes the tone and sound coming out the back.

The motor bounce around a slight bit on the RPMs as it is idling, almost like it is surging or something...it's not nice and smooth like before.

Then there is the worst part.....almost no improvement in HP with a total gain of 9 HP at the wheels pre at 283 and post at 292 and all those gains come on above 4500 RPMs.  From 1000 to 4000 RPMs, the HP curves were 99.9% identical for before and after.  Torque remained completely flat at 302.6.  It may feel a little better by seat of the pants dyno, but that is it.   The temperature was about the same (+/- 2 degress I think) but the humidity was a good deal different which could have affected the post numbers somewhat.

Right now I feel a little sick about the changes and the fact that I plopped down a chunck of change for this.

I'll try and get it back out tomorrow and driver around with the windows down to see how I feel in the AM.  I still have all my takeoff parts, so I could alwasy return to stock if I want, but man, that would be a loss.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions??!!  I hate buyers remorse!!

Andy.

[slbgtsc]

what tune are you using? I put BBK equal length shorty headers on my SC'd car and saw 10-15hp gain with an off road x pipe and the stock mufflers. My guess is the tune needs some tweaking to take advantage of your mods.

[JT93]

I had the same feelings the first time I had my SGT sent off to the tuners. Once you put the FRPP cams in you'll see a big difference. With just the shorty headers and TB you really didn't change a lot. No matter how much air you can get into the intake manifold it can only take a certain amount, and the same on the way out. Even if the headers can move the exhaust faster, they can only move as much as goes through the manifold. The cams will help with the problem, but a bigger intake manifold would really give you the dyno sheet gains you want to see.

[AndyGJ]

JT93, on 21 December 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I had the same feelings the first time I had my SGT sent off to the tuners. Once you put the FRPP cams in you'll see a big difference. With just the shorty headers and TB you really didn't change a lot. No matter how much air you can get into the intake manifold it can only take a certain amount, and the same on the way out. Even if the headers can move the exhaust faster, they can only move as much as goes through the manifold. The cams will help with the problem, but a bigger intake manifold would really give you the dyno sheet gains you want to see.

JT93

If I added the FRPP Performance Intake now, would that improve the power without the HR Cams?  And, just as important, would it bring back that sound of the KR mufflers that I really loved??

Does anyone know what will cause a greater loss of low end Torque -- the HR Cams or the FRPP Intake manifold?  I don't want to give up any TQ or as little as possible on the low end.

I also noticed the NVH has picked up some from the motor mounts....I need to check to see that they installed the "Red" Steeda mount busings and not the "Black" Steeda mount bushings.

You can tell this is bothering me so much that I woke up at 4:00 am just thinking about how to fix these problems.

Thanks,
Andy.

Edited by AndyGJ, 22 December 2012 - 01:24 AM.

[ilmor]

I'm hopeful it's a tune issue.  Dd your installer have any thoughts or suggestions?  It's hard to believe that the header and TB manufactures HP claims are such baloney.

[AndyGJ]

ilmor, on 22 December 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

I'm hopeful it's a tune issue.  Dd your installer have any thoughts or suggestions?  It's hard to believe that the header and TB manufactures HP claims are such baloney.

When I asked him about it when I picked up my car, all he said was that is why he was recommending the Long Tubes instead of the Shorties.  When I asked about the tune, it sounded as though they really didn't do anything to the Steeda tune...I asked about any tune adjustments and they said it all looked fine, so I'm almost taking that to mean they didn't really adjust anything.

Almost makes you wonder if I was shotgunned through to get it done and out...probably not, but it did cross my mind.

I'll take it out again today and put it through some paces to see what it feels like....I was still numb last night as I drove home from working about 80 hours this week and the sudden onset of buyers' remorse.

Andy.

[ilmor]

Andy, maybe something like this requires more of a "professional" tune rather than a canned tune?  We'll have to let the experienced / experts chime in here - I am certainly not one of those.  I'm just hoping to see this turn out good for you.

[andrewnagle1964]

ilmor, on 22 December 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Andy, maybe something like this requires more of a "professional" tune rather than a canned tune?  We'll have to let the experienced / experts chime in here - I am certainly not one of those.  I'm just hoping to see this turn out good for you.

No expert here but this is the route I took.

My current problem is my local tuner was great by he passed away about 18 months ago.

I was one step away from having two tunes one for nitrous and one without. I am stuck (for now ) with the nitrous one so the cars runs rich.

I will be using Dan at Pro-Dyno in Fort Mill SC this summer (based on numerous recommendations)

One if the reason I bought and saved parts for 12 months and did it all at once, the downside was no dyno results to compare what part did what.

Good luck and keep moving forward don't look back it will all work out  as your head towards your goal

Andrew

Edited by andrewnagle1964, 22 December 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[AndyGJ]

I just checked the Steeda motor mounts....they did  use the Red inserts, but they didn't drop it 1/2 inch.  It is at the same height as the stock mounts.  Even at that, there is a good deal more NVH than the stock mounts for those who are interested in feedback on them.

I'll have to see about addressing that with them after Christmas I guess.

Ilmor, I would have thought a custom tune over a canned tune would have produced some better results as well.  I really wonder how much they were listening to their customer....

Andy.

[07SGT]

Andy, are you saying they installed Steeda Intake Elbow w/Black tubes
Steeda SCT-X3 93 Octane Tune
FRPP 62mm Throttle Body and under drive pulleys along with a 93 tune and shorty headers and it only delivered 9 hp to the rear wheels?

I must admit I would have guessed about 25 hp to the rear wheels.

Edited by 07SGT, 22 December 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[slbgtsc]

I would contact either steeda or another company (JDM,Brenspeed) and get another tune based on your mods. My guess is the current tune is leaving a lot on the table.

[JT93]

AndyGJ, on 22 December 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

JT93

If I added the FRPP Performance Intake now, would that improve the power without the HR Cams?  And, just as important, would it bring back that sound of the KR mufflers that I really loved??

Does anyone know what will cause a greater loss of low end Torque -- the HR Cams or the FRPP Intake manifold?  I don't want to give up any TQ or as little as possible on the low end.

I also noticed the NVH has picked up some from the motor mounts....I need to check to see that they installed the "Red" Steeda mount busings and not the "Black" Steeda mount bushings.

You can tell this is bothering me so much that I woke up at 4:00 am just thinking about how to fix these problems.

Thanks,
Andy.

Anything that helps air move faster through the motor will help the HP issue. So, yes I think it would help some. I did the intake after the cams and the TB and it helped out some (the long tubes helped out too). In regards to the sound, I don't want to tell you yes or no. My gut says its going to be difficult to get the exact sound back without putting the stock headers back on. But, there might be someone here that know more than myself about that and might have a better answer.

I do think you should've gained more than you did, it sounds like part of the issue was the tuner and that doesn't surprise me. Great tuners are hard to come by (at least around me). Steeda sounds like a good place to start with trying to figure out why the retune would've been weak. When I hear a tuner say "it all looked good" to me that says the air/fuel ratio was at a safe level throughout the tune. If you were dealing with my tuner and those were the part you had installed he would've probably done the same thing because he wouldn't want to put a strain on the motor for no reason, but would spend hours on the dyno the next time you came in with "bigger" parts (cams, intake, etc.) that can give huge gains if dialed in perfectly (variable cam timing adjustments, pushing the A/F to the peak of the safe range, trying to dial in more low end TQ). So, I wouldn't be completely discouraged, just be knowledgeable in typical part gains and what range they should be in, and then see if that corresponds from dyno sheet to dyno sheet. If it doesn't match up like the compamy's tests say it should ask the tuner why it's different for your car. I always call the tuner over when i pick up my car and ask why I see gains on the sheet in place X and losses in Y and what he feels would/could correct the problem.

Edited by JT93, 22 December 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[ilmor]

slbgtsc, on 22 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I would contact either steeda or another company (JDM,Brenspeed) and get another tune based on your mods. My guess is the current tune is leaving a lot on the table.

This is what I think also - 9 hp just doesnt make any sense.  Heck, a 93 tune over the stock tune is probably worth 5 hp by itself.  It's almost as if the other mods don't really exist!

[07SGT]

Andy, are we to assume the installer did not perform a tune, rather he just installed the canned tune?  I am curious what a good tuner could do with the sum of your parts.  And while keeping it very safe A/F.