42 replies to this topic

[Albino500]

HyperStangs, on 05 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

We'll have to agree to disagree... and I can live with that.

Yep - no problem - I'm sure there are plenty of other things that we'll find to agree upon and disagree upon Jeff.

[REAL ONE]

Guys: Thanks for the replies. Understand both sides of the argument.  Probably will go with Watts Link for the cool factor if nothing else.

Silly..I know but I know you guys "get it" as its a car guy thing.

Cheers.

[HyperStangs]

REAL ONE, on 06 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Guys: Thanks for the replies. Understand both sides of the argument.  Probably will go with Watts Link for the cool factor if nothing else.

Silly..I know but I know you guys "get it" as its a car guy thing.

Cheers.

Not "Silly" at all... the real beauty of these cars is there ARE so many options.  Nobody is really "right" or "wrong"...  that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.  ENJOY!  

[2010KonaBlueGT]

svt13, on 05 December 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I don't know about all that. But a lot of people that I have seen posting about their alignment said they still couldn't get it 100% perfect with an adjutable panhard bar.

I don't know why that would be. It's a *very* simple adjustment and measurement.

To measure it, I used a string bob on each side of the fender lip.

When I first put my car on the ground (after installing the FR-3 handling pack) the left rear tire was one full inch offset to the left (sticking out the driver side well).

Using a string bob hanging off of the outer fender lip I adjusted the rear axle over to the right, 1/2 inch and got the axle *perfectly* centered in the body.

And that's where it stays, other than under compression or rebound of the body (dynamically).

And yes, I DO get the rear steer that Jer wrote about and I have seriously considered some sort of watts link/age to counter it.

Ya know when you bang a shift and the car kicks out to the left (rear of the car kicks to the right)? I'm thinking some of that is the rear steer you get from when the ass end of the car squats (weight transfer). I know the rear tire speed delta is the primary contributor too but I'm thinking (meaning I'm guessing) that some of it is due to the panhard bar arc.

I also has a butt pucker when I hit a bridge seam at around 145mph. The ass gets light and then lands, giving the rear axle the opportunity to put the panhard into a full arc. It wasn't a problem, but it got my attention.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably put a Watts link/age system in the rear of my car vs. the FRPP axle girdle, Shelby adjustable Panhard bar and Body Brace (and probably for just a little more money than what I spent).


Phill

[Albino500]

Check out Cali_KR's comments on his post.

[ViperNC]

Watts Link or Panhard bar is a drivers preference based upon "how" you drive.  Its purely subjective and all about what type of performance you are looking for.  They guy who drives 100% on the street and does not corner hard will be happy with the panhard bar.  The guy who is looking to make the car handle the very best it can and pushes to that limit will not be happy with the panhard bar.  I went with the Shelby billet aluminum watts link and not only does it look incredible, but it makes a huge difference in tight high speed corners (track or street).

[REAL ONE]

Thanks.

[svt13]

So I finally took my watts link off and went back to a panhard bar and on the street I can tell you a watts link makes NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. Anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves and they just believe it makes a difference because they want to.

There are a few turns especially an extremely long ramp that with the watts I would take at like 60 mph and I was pulling pretty good gs. According to my track apps I was pulling .92

I could do the exact same thing with the panhard yesterday on winter tires with 35 degree temperatures and it felt the EXACT SAME. The rear steering that I thought the watts link solved was still solved even after the watts was off. This makes me believe either my springs or my UCA,LCA fixed that issue and not the watts.

I will say that going over bumps there is a tiny bit more squrim without the watts because it allowed for easier vertical motion like an IRS would. But it is very very small.

Here is basically the difference between a watts and panhard. If you test the max g's you could get with both you would probably find the watts would be little bit better. But that would be only on a track. I don't know about you but I don't have the ba**s to test out the limits on the street. So lets say on a track you pull .92 on a single turn with a panhard bar. A watts would do .94. But on the street unless you want to chance it and be in a really hairy situation, the watts link makes no difference.

I can speak better about this topic because I went from panhard to watts and then back to panhard and I paid attention specifically to how the car reacted doing the same turns, at the same speeds, in the same conditions which I'm sure many other members won't be able to tell you.

Save your money basically.

[shelbygt2899]

^^^ thank you for the direct comparison review. hopefully it will clear things up for some members

[ViperNC]

svt13, on 11 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

There are a few turns especially an extremely long ramp that with the watts I would take at like 60 mph and I was pulling pretty good gs. According to my track apps I was pulling .92

You're only going 60 mph?  Thats why you don't feel the difference.

[svt13]

ViperNC, on 11 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

You're only going 60 mph?  Thats why you don't feel the difference.

It was on an extremely tight on ramp not a normal one that is why I like to use it to gauge my suspension stuff. Were you not reading the post clearly? I pulled .92 g's. That is a lot when the car can pull 1g max.

But hey by all means put a watts on your car and try to pull 1g on the street at 80mph (which is what it would take on a similar ramp like mine). Like I said I don't have the ba**s or the stupidity to wreck my car and buy a new one.

[MMcGuirk]

svt13, on 11 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

So I finally took my watts link off and went back to a panhard bar and on the street I can tell you a watts link makes NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. Anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves and they just believe it makes a difference because they want to.

There are a few turns especially an extremely long ramp that with the watts I would take at like 60 mph and I was pulling pretty good gs. According to my track apps I was pulling .92

I could do the exact same thing with the panhard yesterday on winter tires with 35 degree temperatures and it felt the EXACT SAME. The rear steering that I thought the watts link solved was still solved even after the watts was off. This makes me believe either my springs or my UCA,LCA fixed that issue and not the watts.

I will say that going over bumps there is a tiny bit more squrim without the watts because it allowed for easier vertical motion like an IRS would. But it is very very small.

Here is basically the difference between a watts and panhard. If you test the max g's you could get with both you would probably find the watts would be little bit better. But that would be only on a track. I don't know about you but I don't have the ba**s to test out the limits on the street. So lets say on a track you pull .92 on a single turn with a panhard bar. A watts would do .94. But on the street unless you want to chance it and be in a really hairy situation, the watts link makes no difference.

I can speak better about this topic because I went from panhard to watts and then back to panhard and I paid attention specifically to how the car reacted doing the same turns, at the same speeds, in the same conditions which I'm sure many other members won't be able to tell you.

Save your money basically.

The reason you did not notice a significant change was due to the poor design of the Watt's link you installed.

Having the pivot point on the rear axle does not make any sense from a suspension geometry standpoint.

Put a Steeda or a Fays2 on your car, then comment.

[ViperNC]

svt13, on 11 February 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

It was on an extremely tight on ramp not a normal one that is why I like to use it to gauge my suspension stuff. Were you not reading the post clearly? I pulled .92 g's. That is a lot when the car can pull 1g max.

But hey by all means put a watts on your car and try to pull 1g on the street at 80mph (which is what it would take on a similar ramp like mine). Like I said I don't have the ba**s or the stupidity to wreck my car and buy a new one.

Oh I read it clearly.. Actually your first post stated it was an extremely "long" ramp... last I checked "long" and "tight" don't mean the same thing.  So which was it? Long or tight?

I've got a seriously sweet decreasing radius on ramp near my house which you can carry about 75 mph into and the tight turn in at the bottom increases g and scrubs speed down to about 55 mph (I'm guessing because I've never looked at the speedo at that part of the ramp).  The tail end of the car was always unpredicable with the panhard bar.  With the Fays2, the car held the corner and shot out onto the highway like it had been fired out of a cannon.  BTW - there was a friend of mine driving his ZR1 behind me and couldn't believe how I got away from him.  Could never have pulled that off with the panhard bar.

It goes back to my previous post:

Watts Link or Panhard bar is a drivers preference based upon "how" you drive. Its purely subjective and all about what type of performance you are looking for. They guy who drives 100% on the street and does not corner hard will be happy with the panhard bar. The guy who is looking to make the car handle the very best it can and pushes to that limit will not be happy with the panhard bar.

You're clearly not cornering hard enough on the street to notice the difference and this is by your preference.  What one person describes as stupid or too agressive may not be the case for the next guy. Each person is entitled to their opinion.

Edited by ViperNC, 11 February 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[svt13]

If a zr1 couldn't keep up with a shelby in a turn then that is driver mod plain and simple. Plus this turn you are doing is it on stock tires? I was doing this in winter tires so obviously I can't go as fast when compared to the GYs or even my Michelin PSS that are coming. With that being said stupid is simple when you do more on the street to the point where it goes off the road. There is no other definition.

As far as the watts link. Maybe you should raise your concerns with Griggs? They must have a poorly design watts link as well.

Also I drove in a 50th anniversary super snake with the fays2 it's the same crap. Felt no different as far as turning. Only difference I felt was the 800hp

Edited by svt13, 11 February 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[ViperNC]

svt13, on 11 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

If a zr1 couldn't keep up with a shelby in a turn then that is driver mod plain and simple. Plus this turn you are doing is it on stock tires? I was doing this in winter tires so obviously I can't go as fast when compared to the GYs or even my Michelin PSS that are coming. With that being said stupid is simple when you do more on the street to the point where it goes off the road. There is no other definition.

As far as the watts link. Maybe you should raise your concerns with Griggs? They must have a poorly design watts link as well.

Also I drove in a 50th anniversary super snake with the fays2 it's the same crap. Felt no different as far as turning. Only difference I felt was the 800hp

Wow.... you are full of opinions.  If you are curious about the mods on my car, read below.  Nice chatting.

[svt13]

ViperNC, on 11 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Wow.... you are full of opinions.  If you are curious about the mods on my car, read below.  Nice chatting.

Zr1 pulls over 1g so it shouldn't out maneuver a stock or lightly modified shelby. That is fact not opinion.

Griggs with their TT kit that has a "flawed" designed watts link causes mustang to handle as good as a corvette. Fact not opinion.

Now what you described.... Lots of different factors could account for that outcome.  Fact not opinion

[Albino500]

svt13, on 11 February 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Zr1 pulls over 1g so it shouldn't out maneuver a stock or lightly modified shelby. That is fact not opinion.

Really , I think that you have you're facts wrong again svt13 . As mentioned in prior posts of yours - this 13' Shelby being your first stick shift car and all , along with you taking the W/L watts off of your car so you could take it in for a gear noise issue , your comment about pulling .92 g vs the 1g in a ZR1 and the ZR1 shouldn't out maneuver a stock Shelby , etc. etc. just confirms that you're on here rambling again with your BS . Go now and sell off the rest of your parts and your car and get something you can handle like a Prius . Here's a fact for you - the handling capabilities of a Griggs suspension to handle as well as it does is due to the fact that the roll center can be set below the axle centerline ( whereas the Whiteline unit you had on your car can not go that low ) along with his SLA front suspension .

[ViperNC]

http://carsort.com/c...500-competitors

I think everyone will find this article interesting and unbiased.  This is why I've focused most of my efforts on suspension upgrades.  Let's face it: The Stock GT500 handles like a sack of wet rice.  I'd be thrilled to learn if mine handles as good as a Boss 302 which pulls .98 g in the corners.  Next track day and a g meter will tell..... Brake upgrade first. Those Shelby Wilwoods look sweet!

http://www.shelbysto...5mk-2300-uf.htm

[jerseygator]

[JeffJ]

What cracks me up the most is, here's the rear suspension of a championship winning, race winning, full race Boss302R Continental Challenge Mustang.  All factory mounting ponts, simple panhard rod, factory stamped third link, coil over shocks in factory mounting points, that's about it......

Look at those big racing brakes and huge roll bar:

Edited by JeffJ, 11 February 2013 - 07:20 PM.