[pawn65]

From talking to my friends at Shinoda Performance is that ford has to give them 3 years notice before they can come out with a Ford Boss mustang and according to my sources at ford is that ford has the only agreement with ford to produce a boss so all other boss except Shinodas have nothing to do with Ford.

[68fastback]

pawn65, on Nov 19 2007, 07:23 PM, said:

From talking to my friends at Shinoda Performance is that ford has to give them 3 years notice before they can come out with a Ford Boss mustang and according to my sources at ford is that ford has the only agreement with ford to produce a boss so all other boss except Shinodas have nothing to do with Ford.

Ford now has rights to the BOSS name -- they trademarked "BOSS" a year ago last summer after working out 'custody' <lol> of the BOSS name with the Shinoda family and Ford introduced a line of BOSS crate motors at SEMA in October of 2006. Ford has rights to the Boss name -- Ford would never agree to haveing to tell Shinoda what they're doing three years in advance, imo.

I don't see that the Shinoda BOSS has anything to do with Ford either -- they just have aftermarket sales agreements with some Ford dealers, same as Saleen/Roush/Foose/FunkmasterFlex/etc. Also, companies that upfit the F-series with work-boxes, etc, but have no direct affiliation with Ford Motor Company, is an upfitter example that also has no affiliation with FoMoCo.

Coincidentally, and totaly unrelated, Saleen assembled the For GT for Ford and Roush does certain engine evaluation and testing/test-plans for Ford ...even preps some engineering documents, and did the fabrication and build on the 999 Hydrogen Fuel Cell land-speed record holding Ford Fusion, but those are specific contract arrangements for a Ford product/project/ workproduct -- but the Saleen and Roush aftermarket cars are in no way related to Ford Motor Comapany, nor is Shinoda.

Shelby, on the other handk, has several roles with Ford: as a partner, as an upfitter for specific FoMoCo products (Shelby GT, GT500KR) and as an aftermarket upfiter (SS-upfits, etc) for their own builds (analygous to the Saleen, Shinoda and Roush mustangs.

Next time you talk to your friends at Shinoda or Ford Motor Comapany (not a dealer), ask them specifically what their contractual relationship is with the other in the context of a production Ford car or project. I'd be hyper-skeptical and astounded if they tell you it's anything more than non-existant (seriously).

Dan

[robertlane]

I have to agree with Dan (68fastback). It would be a strategic mistake for Ford to have to tell anyone their future product plans.

At any rate, the Boss is coming in 2009/2010. I'm closing in on a GT500 for purchase soon, maybe a Boss next?

[68fastback]

sounds like a plan, Robert!! I may never be able to afford a new BOSS, but I sure do thirst to see/touch/ride/drive one!!! Seems like most all of the pieces and factory capabilities are in place now ...the wait is killing me <lol> even tho I think it's smart for Ford to keep silent as long as possible on this one (and maybe plan it as a two trick pony as well? we shall see...). <sigh> ;-)

[pawn65]

no my sources aren't at dealers actually people up north that work in the company and shinoda said the reason they have to have so long of a notice is so they can shut down production of the boss thats right the shinoda family has the agreement with ford to produce the "shinoda boss". oh yeah and dont hold your breathe over a boss coming from ford from 09 or 10. oh yeah and on side note saleen is a manufactor they pretty much get a stripped down mustang and build it themselves.

This post has been edited by pawn65: 26 November 2007 - 07:11 PM

[68fastback]

Maybe I'm not understanding... are you saying Ford will contract with Shinoda to produce a Shinoda Boss ...for Ford? Anything's posssible but I really doubt that ..and I would not be interested, but others may be.

My 'sources' ( <lol>) indicate a Ford Boss Mustang in the chute as a '10MY in 1H'09. Plans change, but I'd be very surprised if Ford balks on this one.

[pawn65]

yeah im thinking if ford does one eventually that they would want the involvement of the shinoda family. it would make sense wouldnt it. and i thought ford quit making the GT? they do look pretty sweet in person. and also what im saying is that shinoda would have to have time to shut down production of the shinoda boss for the ford boss to be made. would make sense doesnt it.

[68fastback]

pawn65, on Nov 26 2007, 11:09 PM, said:

yeah im thinking if ford does one eventually that they would want the involvement of the shinoda family. it would make sense wouldnt it. and i thought ford quit making the GT? they do look pretty sweet in person. and also what im saying is that shinoda would have to have time to shut down production of the shinoda boss for the ford boss to be made. would make sense doesnt it.

I guess that would depend on the arrangements Ford made with the Shinoda family/estate. Since ford has trademarked BOSS the must have outright rights to the name in some real way. The deal could have provided for Shinoda to retain their Shinoda Boss rights as well (similar to Ford and Shelby where Ford owns rights to "Cobra" in a modern context and Shelby owns it in the Shelby Cobra context).

If the arrangement is someting like that (dunno), potentially the Shinoda folks could continue to make their Shinoda Boss and Ford could also make a Boss Mustang -- al depends on the arrangements.

My gut would be that Ford would want total independence from Shinoda with no strings attched whatsoever. The fact of the trademark would seem to be consistent with that, but most any mutually-agreeable arrangement could be in place.

I actually think any binding association with the Shinoda name would work against Ford because, although Shinoda came up with the name and the hockey-stick stripe, as a personality/figure he was never really "visible" or really associated with the Ford Boss Mustangs in the popular culture back in the day. The Boss Mustangs were associated 100% with Ford and few were also aware or payed any attention to the fact that some designer named Larry Shinoda worked on the Boss design concept.

Perception is a powerful thing, so an association with the name Shinoda on a Boss redux would not work, imo, the same way an association with Shelby did (and does) on the Shelby GT/GT500. In a way that's also historically accurate, since Carroll Shelby really did much more than design work on the original Shelbys -- they were extensively reworked at a total-performance level by Shelby's team at the behest of Ford and the styling aspects were more of a form-follows-function ...from the outset. Of course Ford later 'adopted' what CS had done and contractually exploited the concept in the out-years but the association was always performance-based. Whereas the Shinoda relationship was more one of a hired pen who came up with a cool name and graphic but was never really associated with what made a Boss a BOSS -- a peformance machine, if you catch my drift. That association was historically 100% FoMoCo.

Sure will be interesting to see how it all plays out -- that's part of the fun, imo ;-)

[pawn65]

true we can debate it all we want but like you said it depends on what the agreement said as to how it would actually work but i think now more people are more aware of the larry shinoda design of the boss then back in the day when it first came out. because i know shinoda was at sema this year. and plus all the magazine articles done about it.

[68fastback]

There was a lot of attention in articles written when he passed away -- 10 years ago!! Now a lot of those dubious sources seem to pop up as source material ...funny how stuff goes around.'

Here's the problem I'm having... I don't know if you were driving in the days of the original pony-car culture and the Boss Mustangs. The Team Shinoda website is full of a lot of carefully written 'claims' that seem to shine an especially broad spotlight on Mr. Shinoda ...could this be what I'll politely call 'revisionist history?'

At that link under the "History of the Boss (Shinoda) Mustang" (<-their words, not mine) they go on to say how Shinoda "introduced" the Boss 302 and Boss 429 mustangs. Really??? That's news to me! ...and I suspect it's news to Ford too.

Further down they talk about how he was "responsible" for the '63 Stingray ...really?!

It goes on to say how he was "responsible" for the Torino Cobra ...really?!

See how this works? ***I sure hope they're talking about the DESIGN, not the CAR!*** ...but seemingly no atempt is made at any such substantive distinctions.

Look a little further down where they state "Currently Team Shinoda is a member of SEMA(Specialty Equipted Manufatures Association)." [<-their exact words, not mine] Well, besides the abysmal spelling throughout that site, SEMA has not gone by that name for many moons now! Makes you wonder, huh?

Anyhow, Larry Shinoda was a wondeful designer, penned the Boss 'look' and coined the name. Beyond that, the Boss is totally FoMoCo, no Shinoda, except for Shinodas attempts to continue to, sort of, 'ride' the fame of Ford's Boss-horse in the intevening years by creating some nice modded mustangs as have dozens of other aftermarket builders; except he got to use the word BOSS.

And why not? He did pen an iconic design and name, but anyone who thinks he was "responsible" for the CAR in any material way either wasn't around then or has been reading material prepared buy those who might have a vested interest in respinning or slanting the course of history, imho -- and, as a Ford nut, that clearly irks me.

There's a lot more I could say on this but I really don't want to create an adversarial situation on the BOSS subject, or give the whole Shinoda 'thing' any more attention than it's already garnered ...especially given that Ford will, once again, be introducing a genuine factory BOSS Mustang -- and hopefully a proper heir to their legacy -- just as FORD did back in the day.

Btw, I don't hear anyone clamoring for a Shinoda Boss (the few who know they actually have existed in the interim) and they don't appear to be especially valued among collectors, it would seem, tho some seem like well-done aftermarket builds. I suspect that's because folks are clamoring for the progenerative blood-line heir to the BOSS throne and that can only come from Ford, imo.

Dan out.

[pawn65]

kinda interesting you say that since everything you find about larry shinoda says he was hired by ford ceo to revamp the model lines plus he came up with the name and the look of the car. i can tell you really know about larry shinoda since he is one of the most famous car designers out Z28 Camaro, '63 Corvette Stingray, fame(Why hes in the corvette hall of fame), introduced the original Boss 302 and Boss 429 Mustangs. and how even mca recognizes shinoda as the father of the boss mustang since he came up with the name of the car the engine and the graphics. plus i heard the new knight rider show was gonna use a mustang as kitt isnt that crazy? and i believe i even wrote down in my last statement they were a sema this year. hmm to me i could of sworn there was a 10.0 liter boss shown to the public but never produced. oh yeah and by the way my dad is 60 hes the one that always told me shinoda made the boss. and im pretty sure hes old enough to remember when they first came out. In 1994, shortly after the new SN-95 Mustang debuted, Coletti decided to drop a big-inch Boss 429 into a '94 Mustang in a response to Chevrolet's Rat-power prototype Camaros. Utilizing a NASCAR-spec Boss 429 engine, the huge powerplant was prepped for modern fuel-injection and other updates by Roush Racing. Coletti even called on Larry Shinoda, originator of the Boss name and '69-'70 graphics, to create a new stripe package for the '94 Mustang body style.

This post has been edited by pawn65: 28 November 2007 - 04:26 PM

[68fastback]

pawn65, on Nov 28 2007, 06:52 PM, said:

kinda interesting you say that since everything you find about larry shinoda says he was hired by ford ceo to revamp the model lines plus he came up with the name and the look of the car. i can tell you really know about larry shinoda since he is one of the most famous car designers out Z28 Camaro, '63 Corvette Stingray, fame(Why hes in the corvette hall of fame), introduced the original Boss 302 and Boss 429 Mustangs. and how even mca recognizes shinoda as the father of the boss mustang since he came up with the name of the car the engine and the graphics. plus i heard the new knight rider show was gonna use a mustang as kitt isnt that crazy? and i believe i even wrote down in my last statement they were a sema this year. hmm to me i could of sworn there was a 10.0 liter boss shown to the public but never produced. oh yeah and by the way my dad is 60 hes the one that always told me shinoda made the boss. and im pretty sure hes old enough to remember when they first came out. In 1994, shortly after the new SN-95 Mustang debuted, Coletti decided to drop a big-inch Boss 429 into a '94 Mustang in a response to Chevrolet's Rat-power prototype Camaros. Utilizing a NASCAR-spec Boss 429 engine, the huge powerplant was prepped for modern fuel-injection and other updates by Roush Racing. Coletti even called on Larry Shinoda, originator of the Boss name and '69-'70 graphics, to create a new stripe package for the '94 Mustang body style.

Shinoda didn't create the BOSS engine -- just the name -- remember, he was a designer.

I hadn't heard about Night Rider considering the BOSS for Kitt -- how cool! Wonder why they didn't. Such associations are sometimes powerfull marketing tools. In '78-'79 as a result of the Smokey and the Bandit movies, Pontiac sold over 150,000 Firebirds (240HP??) -- many more than they ever sold back when they were true muscle cars with 455cid engines (Super Chicken logo <lol>) and made big HP. Makes you wonder if Kitt was a BOSS if we'd have seen another factory BOSS mustang back then! Possibly could have changed the course of things a bit -- dunno.

The 10.0L Boss was the one John Coletti did to spook GM, as you mentioned. I don't think there was ever any intent to produce it... it was just to get everyone's attention in '94 and hint at what could be ...on the heels of the killer '03/'04 Cobra "Terminators." Btw, the '03/'04 Cobras were called Terminators because they were engineered to call GM's bluff in the muscle car arena and terminate the Camaro/FBird. They were the first car (that I'm aware of) specifically engineered and built to be exceptionally friendly to the aftermarket -- to be easy to build aftermarket pieces for -- from the intake to suspension to the exhaust. Coletti knew if he planned it right and didn't tip his hand too early GM could not step up and build/sell enough Camaros that could compete with the potential of the Terminators ...if he carefully engineered them to be potent from the factory and easily capable of MUCH more HP with easily-plug-compatible aftermarket bolt-ons. Camaro and Challenger will sing from this same hymnal -- but the Termies were the first cars to master this approach and the S197s have now elevated it to a true artform ...part of the Coletti legacy.

It was a coup for Ford and, as the Terminator name foreboded, GM had to withdraw the Camaro/Firebird because they were ill prepared to compete with the total-engineering (factory + aftermarket) approach of the Termies and didn't have the volumes to justify an all out assault ...brilliant! GM could have struck back in 12-24 months, but chose not to throw good money after bad on a financially sinking ship (Camaro/FBird). Coletti was a great 'old-school' strategist, imo, and masterful at staging Ford's Performance hand ...working the PR game for maximum effect. It was a sad day when he retired, but his style would not have mixed well with Hau Tai-Tang, imo, who got to own the S197 pony ...and did a damn good job at exploiting Coletti's proven 'formula'.

I think one of the reasons Coletti was so loved by enthusiasts is that he was a genuine performance enthusiast himself ...a real car guy in the truest sense who played on the weekend with his own hi-po toys. He 'grew-up in Ford during the Bunky Knutson era (who was 'seduced' from GM and had great credibility and therefore considerable clout with Ford senior management. It was a simpler and different era where tough decisions could actually be finalized on a hand-shake.

Here's some pics of Coletti's 10.0L Boss -- just awesome!! Remember, '04 was the 25th anniversary of the Boss and I would not be surprised if Larry Shinoda was called upon, as your dad says, to do the graphics -- just as he had 25 years earlier ...a nice touch and consistent with Coletti's penchant for both doing things right and respecting the car's history, but certainly Shinoda would not have have had any technical influence on the Coletti 10.0L Boss either -- just as in the '60s. Btw, the Coletti 10.0L BOSS made 855HP and 790ft-lb Tq ...and ran 0-60 in 3.9 sec.! I sure do miss his take-no-prisioners 'style' ;-)

 1994__Boss_600cid_10Liter_DOHC_Mustang.jpg (96.21K)
Number of downloads: 9
 1994__Boss_600cid_10Liter_DOHC_Mustang.jpg (70.76K)
Number of downloads: 14
 1994__Boss_600cid_10Liter_DOHC_Mustang_855HP_790ftlb_1_60_1.9sec.jpg (67.4K)
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 1994__Boss_600cid_10Liter_DOHC_Mustang_855HP_790ft_lb_0_60_3.9sec.jpg (30.36K)
Number of downloads: 3

<edit:> ...just noticed ... side graphics on 10L Boss do bear a real resemblance to Shinoda Boss of the period.

This post has been edited by 68fastback: 30 November 2007 - 08:40 PM

[pawn65]

nah wasnt saying what kitt was gonna be but you expect like i would that it would be more than just a mustang gt. Ford has been rumored to be looking for the Mach 1 Mustang from the James Bond movie Diamonds Are Forever to turn it into a production Mustang for 2009. This would make sense if you look at the order in which the Bullitt and Mach 1 were released in the past with the Bullitt coming in 2001 and Mach 1 after that in 2003.

This post has been edited by pawn65: 29 November 2007 - 12:37 PM

[68fastback]

maybe the Mach can be a follow-on to the GT500... maybe detuned a bit and cheaper... sort of the 'budget' muscle-car niche it filled back in the day too.

Ford may have several options 'groomed' and waiting on seeing exactly how the Challenger and Camaro measure up.

I just hope legislation doesn't drive these cars into the ground as in the '70s -- I'm still bummed by that <lol> ;-)

[pawn65]

i kinda thought that was the purpose of the shelby gt. and i think multiple factors had to do with t he demise of the fbody cost to high for the new safety standards in cars at the time and also the fact they wanted to demolish the plant that it was being made at because it would cost to much to update and then finally sales figures where they had the same car pretty much competing against itself.

[68fastback]

I was figuring more like 450HP rather than 319 (SGT)... The Bullitt sort fills the budget-SGT slot, but nothing yet filling the budget GT500 slot -- the traditional niche of the Mach. Maybe after the GT500 damand cools a bit Ford will do a Mach in that slot though they might not have much price-point to work with since the GT500 is an all-factory build to begin with.

What I'm really salivating over tho is a 5.0 NA curve-carver BOSS ;-)

[pawn65]

68fastback, on Nov 30 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

I was figuring more like 450HP rather than 319 (SGT)... The Bullitt sort fills the budget-SGT slot, but nothing yet filling the budget GT500 slot -- the traditional niche of the Mach. Maybe after the GT500 damand cools a bit Ford will do a Mach in that slot though they might not have much price-point to work with since the GT500 is an all-factory build to begin with.

What I'm really salivating over tho is a 5.0 NA curve-carver BOSS ;-)

well its good to have dreams.

[mach1fever]

The official car for KITT will be the kr

[68fastback]

mach1fever, on Dec 3 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

The official car for KITT will be the kr

Are they bringing Night Rider back?! <yikes!>

[pawn65]

yup they definately are.