[sn95pro]

hate to be the bearer of bad news but my sources tell me that the at least the 4.6 version of the Boss engine looks like it's dead. This was the engine robert spoke about regarding a niche engine coming out of Romeo. The engine was an 4.6 aluminum block version with Ford GT heads and wild intake with criss-cross runners in new 2008 cast aluminum intake. Throttle body plenum came off the back of the engine and up and over the top, similar to a 2001 Bullitt intake. Valve covers were Ford GT witg a special built oil fill provision. HP ratings were just under 400 naturally aspirated. Don't take this wrong, this was the 4.6 version. There still may be a 5.4 version but I'm told there is starting to be a blur between shelbys, shelby GT's, Boss, possible Bullitt and Mach1 . The 4.6 Boss program is shelved or possibly dead at this point.

[MustangFanatic]

sn95pro, on Sep 29 2006, 12:26 PM, said:

hate to be the bearer of bad news but my sources tell me that the at least the 4.6 version of the Boss engine looks like it's dead. This was the engine robert spoke about regarding a niche engine coming out of Romeo. The engine was an 4.6 aluminum block version with Ford GT heads and wild intake with criss-cross runners in new 2008 cast aluminum intake. Throttle body plenum came off the back of the engine and up and over the top, similar to a 2001 Bullitt intake. Valve covers were Ford GT witg a special built oil fill provision. HP ratings were just under 400 naturally aspirated. Don't take this wrong, this was the 4.6 version. There still may be a 5.4 version but I'm told there is starting to be a blur between shelbys, shelby GT's, Boss, possible Bullitt and Mach1 . The 4.6 Boss program is shelved or possibly dead at this point.

I can understand the niche engine being developed as per Robert's article, for the upcoming Boss. However, I don't buy the last comment regarding a blurring of the lines between the various models as the reason for cancellation of the Boss. Consider this, the GT500 is for the wealthy, those more interested in ROI than quarter mile timeslips or quicker lap times. The Shelby GT is simply a response to healthy demand fueled by the GT-H introduction. I view the later as a simple "strike while the iron is hot" type of reaction and believe the production cycle for that model will be fairly short, just enough to satisfy demand. If the niche engine was killed for some sort of engineering or cost reason, I could buy into that rationale but the blurring of the lines between models doesn't really hold up, the demand for distinct models is increasing if anything. If blurring of the lines truly existed, then Shelby America, Saleen, Steeda and Roush would be out of business IMHO.

[JETSOLVER]

sn95pro, on Sep 29 2006, 10:26 AM, said:

hate to be the bearer of bad news but my sources tell me that the at least the 4.6 version of the Boss engine looks like it's dead. This was the engine robert spoke about regarding a niche engine coming out of Romeo.

I'm a little confused. It was understood that the new "BOSS" program was an all new engine series, and the next niche engine mentioned was the carry over for any new S/E based on the current S-197 before the 09 MY refresh. Can you perhaps clear this up? And for what its worth, I had a feeling that Ford was going to ignore a potential world beater with the sort of combo you describe. and the bad news continues....

[MustangFanatic]

If this rumor is confirmed, my guess is that this refers to just the niche engine being developed and not the new Boss engine program. However, I'll defer to more informed sources for the final verdict.

The Boss engine described above sounds like a truly sweet piece and just what "the Boss ordered" in terms of content and output. If it was killed, that would truly be shameful. If Ford were to produce a Boss with a similar powerplant, the demand (and profit) would be overwhelming. Ford is definitely ignoring a tremendous marketing and PR opportunity by not pursuing the Boss path.

[sn95pro]

MustangFanatic, on Sep 29 2006, 01:02 PM, said:

I can understand the niche engine being developed as per Robert's article, for the upcoming Boss. However, I don't buy the last comment regarding a blurring of the lines between the various models as the reason for cancellation of the Boss. Consider this, the GT500 is for the wealthy, those more interested in ROI than quarter mile timeslips or quicker lap times. The Shelby GT is simply a response to healthy demand fueled by the GT-H introduction. I view the later as a simple "strike while the iron is hot" type of reaction and believe the production cycle for that model will be fairly short, just enough to satisfy demand. If the niche engine was killed for some sort of engineering or cost reason, I could buy into that rationale but the blurring of the lines between models doesn't really hold up, the demand for distinct models is increasing if anything. If blurring of the lines truly existed, then Shelby America, Saleen, Steeda and Roush would be out of business IMHO.

Don't shoot the messanger- just repeating what was said in a meeting.

[crispy23c]

It was rumored that you would never see the 4.6-5.4L Boss Mustang. It's supposed to be a 5.8L 2v/OHC somewhere around '10. This has been circulating for a while. Hope this is true!


4.6 blown seems very appropriate for a GT350.....

This post has been edited by crispy23c: 30 September 2006 - 10:34 AM

[MustangFanatic]

sn95pro, on Sep 30 2006, 02:26 PM, said:

Don't shoot the messanger- just repeating what was said in a meeting.

Wasn't shooting anyone, just agreeing to disagree.

crispy23c, on Sep 30 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

It was rumored that you would never see the 4.6-5.4L Boss Mustang. It's supposed to be a 5.8L 2v/OHC somewhere around '10. This has been circulating for a while. Hope this is true!
4.6 blown seems very appropriate for a GT350.....

Certainly wouldn't mine seeing a Boss 351 (as long as it's an all-aluminum lightweight, high revving 5.8 liters) otherwise I'd prefer mine in a Boss 302 variety.

[JETSOLVER]

Just as a reminder, the 4.6 all aluminum 01 Cobra engine and a version of the Term supercharged engine are still manufactured for the Panoz cars. I wonder how much of a premium they have to pay, or is that just another day on the Romeo Niche line?

[MustangFanatic]

JETSOLVER, on Oct 2 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

Just as a reminder, the 4.6 all aluminum 01 Cobra engine and a version of the Term supercharged engine are still manufactured for the Panoz cars. I wonder how much of a premium they have to pay, or is that just another day on the Romeo Niche line?

Excellent point to keep in mind. My guess is that it is just another day on the Romeo niche line but that's all it is, a guess.

[68fastback]

Alternative view(s):

The BOSS is still an engine program and therefore we'll see BOSSes in hi-po trucks, and, yes, Boss Mustangs too.

The 4.6 Romeo niche development could very well have been taking place on a 4.6 alloy motor as a development 'mule' for the missing essential ingredients -- the intake and recamming of the FordGT heads for NA service, both of which would need to be done together -- and they already know the flow characteristics they need to achieve from the 5.0 boy-racer program. So 'killing' the 4.6 Boss might just be a clever diversion or it might be a 5.0, i.e. '4.6Boss' is actually a 5.0. After all, they're just program code-names and what better way to keep a Boss 302 under wraps than to kill it's 'namesake' after it achieves it's test objectives

Ford may be only one tick less conservative than Campbell's (ok, a few ticks), but they aren't dumb. They had to do the intake/head work in advance so they understand the potential HP yield since the previous highest output production DOHC mod-V8 alloy NA motor was the '01 Cobra at 320HP (after screwing up the '99 Cobra intake and getting a big PR black eye!). They have to know for sure that they can get to around 400HP in the right emissions tier since somewhere around 400+HP is essential or ther's no point doing a Boss302 in '08 as an '09 given camaro, etc.

Assuming that work is/was successful, they can put a production Boss302 program together rapidly -- 18-24 months is rapid and places it, not coincidentally, squarely on the 40th anniversary Boss302 schedule.

What a great way to keep things secret: do the heads/intake(/headers?) development and then "kill" the [test] program (called Boss 4.6), and use the 'whineless' ;-) GT500s as chassis/susp mules. Basically, the design points of the whole Boss302 program is now proven -- assuming it met it's objectives, and 400HP even on the 4.6 should be doable with those heads with modest cam-duration/overlap and emissions).

Somehow I think the real Boss302 program would do the CIA proud (yes, I have a lot of faith on this one). If that's the case HTT will have move up one full notch from my earlier concerns that he may have needed John Coletti as his ninja mentor. I am anxiously awaiting eating those savory words ;-)

-----

None of the above necessarily intesects/affects a 5.8/6.2 alloy motor in CY'11 (Boss351 timeframe?) so if the 'Boss302' program didn't hit it's objectives, there's no impact on the follow-on 5.8/6.2. But it's inconceivable and unthinkable to me that Ford would pass on the Boss302 -- one of the most venerated classic 'stangs of all time unless it were technologically undoable (including emissions, etc), which I cannot comprehend -- hence the need for CIA-level secrecy ;-)

This post has been edited by 68fastback: 12 October 2006 - 05:29 PM

[JETSOLVER]

Unfortunately,this is the third clandestine or less source that has emphatically posted that the Mustang Mod program(such as was reported by Robert, and almost exactly as described by sn95pro) is dead beyond the two versions that are now in production. I also would very much love to be wrong...
As sales are as strong as they can be, I do not see Ford conjouring up a need for another good high-performance program in the near term, from their shortsighted viewpoint. Much as I would like them to, and keep the faith with people like myself.

[68fastback]

JETSOLVER, on Oct 13 2006, 12:57 AM, said:

Unfortunately,this is the third clandestine or less source that has emphatically posted that the Mustang Mod program(such as was reported by Robert, and almost exactly as described by sn95pro) is dead beyond the two versions that are now in production. I also would very much love to be wrong...
As sales are as strong as they can be, I do not see Ford conjouring up a need for another good high-performance program in the near term, from their shortsighted viewpoint. Much as I would like them to, and keep the faith with people like myself.

Wouldn't CY'08 be when another big-attention mustang will be needed anyway as the GT500 ends it's run?

The Bullitt and Mach are likely tape-&-relabel exercises on existing bases so I would think someting real needs to be on-point in CY'08 anyway (not that it has to be a Boss but it seems the most logical).

Rob, rumors aside, do you think Ford could actually ignore the 40th anniv of the Boss? ...even if the program was only modestly profitable? I don't know the sources of the info so they may be fairly close to what really happening -- still I find it unthinkable.


You have to admit, if it is really a go, the stealth approach has a lot of merit

[MustangFanatic]

I continue to think and believe that Ford will produce a Boss 302 before the current body style is revamped in MY '10. Even from a strict business perspective, (forgetting for a moment my personal desire to own a new Boss 302 Mustang) the business case to produce one is overwhelming. First, the Boss Mustang nameplate is one of the storied in Ford's history. The success of the original Boss 302's in Trans Am racing is legendary. Given that heritage, why not capitalize on the 40th anniversary of the original? From a marketing perspective, it is a slam dunk and an approach that will resonate strongly with the market. If the new Boss is executed in similar fashion to the original, it will be a huge success, certainly drawing new and former customers into the fold. Secondly, what better way to deflect some of the hype that will be surrounding the Camaro and Challenger than to introduce a Boss 302 just as the new Pony cars from GM and DC hit the market. How embarrassing would it be for GM and DC to bring 6.0L cars to market making 400+ hp while Ford nearly achieves nearly the same results with "only" 5.0L's. IMHO, Ford can't wait until MY '10 to introduce a Mustang with a high HP NA engine, that will be too late to the game. Even as conservation as Ford is, they won't concede an entire market segment to the competition for an entire year, that tactic would sacrifice too much short term profit.

I think Dan is right on track regarding the Boss (aka Hurricane) engine program. The Boss 302 engine and the Boss engine program are two distinctly different tracks. The Boss engine program will be the future of large displacement V8's at Ford and will take time to develop and implement in a variety of platforms including the restyled Mustang. Further, I submit that the Boss 302 engine has the green light because Ford wants to establish a final high water NA engine mark before the mod engine is replaced by the Boss engine program in Hi-Po applications. They have already established the max HP level for the mod engine with the SC'd GT500, so a max effort NA engine is the only remaining gap.

I have faith that all of this is simply an exercise is corporate slight of hand, trying to keep the competition guessing about the cards being played. I would also believe it is in the realm of possibility that Ford could be allowing such "leaks" to occur in a controlled fashion. Broadcasting information that the Boss 302 has been canned might be an attempt not only to distract the competition but also to gauge market interest. If enough potential buyers cry foul, Ford could interpret that as a strong signal that they need to produce such a model. If no protest is heard, then the opposite outcome would be assumed.

So, if anyone at Ford is listening: produce a 400 hp Boss 302 and I will buy one, anyone else?

[68fastback]

MustangFanatic, on Oct 13 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

I continue to think and believe that Ford will produce a Boss 302 before the current body style is revamped in MY '10. Even from a strict business perspective, (forgetting for a moment my personal desire to own a new Boss 302 Mustang) the business case to produce one is overwhelming. First, the Boss Mustang nameplate is one of the storied in Ford's history. The success of the original Boss 302's in Trans Am racing is legendary. Given that heritage, why not capitalize on the 40th anniversary of the original? From a marketing perspective, it is a slam dunk and an approach that will resonate strongly with the market. If the new Boss is executed in similar fashion to the original, it will be a huge success, certainly drawing new and former customers into the fold. Secondly, what better way to deflect some of the hype that will be surrounding the Camaro and Challenger than to introduce a Boss 302 just as the new Pony cars from GM and DC hit the market. How embarrassing would it be for GM and DC to bring 6.0L cars to market making 400+ hp while Ford nearly achieves nearly the same results with "only" 5.0L's. IMHO, Ford can't wait until MY '10 to introduce a Mustang with a high HP NA engine, that will be too late to the game. Even as conservation as Ford is, they won't concede an entire market segment to the competition for an entire year, that tactic would sacrifice too much short term profit.

I think Dan is right on track regarding the Boss (aka Hurricane) engine program. The Boss 302 engine and the Boss engine program are two distinctly different tracks. The Boss engine program will be the future of large displacement V8's at Ford and will take time to develop and implement in a variety of platforms including the restyled Mustang. Further, I submit that the Boss 302 engine has the green light because Ford wants to establish a final high water NA engine mark before the mod engine is replaced by the Boss engine program in Hi-Po applications. They have already established the max HP level for the mod engine with the SC'd GT500, so a max effort NA engine is the only remaining gap.

I have faith that all of this is simply an exercise is corporate slight of hand, trying to keep the competition guessing about the cards being played. I would also believe it is in the realm of possibility that Ford could be allowing such "leaks" to occur in a controlled fashion. Broadcasting information that the Boss 302 has been canned might be an attempt not only to distract the competition but also to gauge market interest. If enough potential buyers cry foul, Ford could interpret that as a strong signal that they need to produce such a model. If no protest is heard, then the opposite outcome would be assumed.

So, if anyone at Ford is listening: produce a 400 hp Boss 302 and I will buy one, anyone else?

+1 Fanatic, and some really good thoughts and perspectives.

I actually can't see any business or strategic indicators that point toward some alternative path that makes sense.

There's always the possibility of a much broader disruptive business/technology reason, but such would be far beyond the pony car segment and would seem even more unlikely than Ford ignoring the 40th anniv of one of it's most venerated marques.

Sign me (and my best friend) up!

[MustangFanatic]

68fastback, on Oct 14 2006, 12:54 AM, said:

+1 Fanatic, and some really good thoughts and perspectives.

I actually can't see any business or strategic indicators that point toward some alternative path that makes sense.

There's always the possibility of a much broader disruptive business/technology reason, but such would be far beyond the pony car segment and would seem even more unlikely than Ford ignoring the 40th anniv of one of it's most venerated marques.

Sign me (and my best friend) up!

Thanks Dan!! I'm sure the SEMA show will shed some light on the future direction but I continue to think Ford cannot pass up such a golden opportunity to produce a Boss 302. Can't wait for the show and the pics that will follow. What days are you going to be at the show?

[39Mustang]

sn95pro, on Sep 29 2006, 12:26 PM, said:

hate to be the bearer of bad news but my sources tell me that the at least the 4.6 version of the Boss engine looks like it's dead. This was the engine robert spoke about regarding a niche engine coming out of Romeo. The engine was an 4.6 aluminum block version with Ford GT heads and wild intake with criss-cross runners in new 2008 cast aluminum intake. Throttle body plenum came off the back of the engine and up and over the top, similar to a 2001 Bullitt intake. Valve covers were Ford GT witg a special built oil fill provision. HP ratings were just under 400 naturally aspirated. Don't take this wrong, this was the 4.6 version. There still may be a 5.4 version but I'm told there is starting to be a blur between shelbys, shelby GT's, Boss, possible Bullitt and Mach1 . The 4.6 Boss program is shelved or possibly dead at this point.

You need new sources! There was never any intention of using the '4.6' engine. Read between the lines...

[68fastback]

MustangFanatic, on Oct 14 2006, 11:10 AM, said:

Thanks Dan!! I'm sure the SEMA show will shed some light on the future direction but I continue to think Ford cannot pass up such a golden opportunity to produce a Boss 302. Can't wait for the show and the pics that will follow. What days are you going to be at the show?

Not sure which day, Fanatic ...we're visiting family so depends on what day my son-in-law can get off. Are you thinking of going?

I'm thinking this far in advance the Boss will still be in stealth -- I'll just be looking for an NA mod with a post-Cobra intake ;-). I'd suspect that boy/man-racers and other goodies, for example, PJ Saleen, will be featured more prominently -- who knows ...maybe even a fabricator/partner interpretation not shown before. Wonder if an old Bud Moore prepped 'stang will be shown (or something like that) -- that would certainly set the 'tone' ;-)

But I think the real-deal will be stealth (dunno) so Ford can successfully eval whatever aspects they're trying to troll for opinions on. If the real-deal is featured, I think the 'brand' and paint would get all the reaction and that makes it hard to eval more subtle features (whatever those may be).

I find the whole concept-vehicle, prototype, eval process fascinating. My hunches above are just based on observation -- I suspect it's a real art and that I likely know very little about the total show/eval process. But it sure is fun speculating on it!

---

On a somewhat related note: Ford relased Bold Moves 15 yesterday. The topic is The People Mover featuring the Fairlane concept. While the vid is interesting, I think the real jewel is the Ford Concept Gallery that accompanies the vid and shows 26 still images of 50 years of people-mover concept vehicles. Some are so advanced for their day it's hard to believe -- others are just, well, hard to believe ;-) You'll like it, I think.

[MustangFanatic]

68fastback, on Oct 14 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

Not sure which day, Fanatic ...we're visiting family so depends on what day my son-in-law can get off. Are you thinking of going?

I'm thinking this far in advance the Boss will still be in stealth -- I'll just be looking for an NA mod with a post-Cobra intake ;-). I'd suspect that boy/man-racers and other goodies, for example, PJ Saleen, will be featured more prominently -- who knows ...maybe even a fabricator/partner interpretation not shown before. Wonder if an old Bud Moore prepped 'stang will be shown (or something like that) -- that would certainly set the 'tone' ;-)

But I think the real-deal will be stealth (dunno) so Ford can successfully eval whatever aspects they're trying to troll for opinions on. If the real-deal is featured, I think the 'brand' and paint would get all the reaction and that makes it hard to eval more subtle features (whatever those may be).

I find the whole concept-vehicle, prototype, eval process fascinating. My hunches above are just based on observation -- I suspect it's a real art and that I likely know very little about the total show/eval process. But it sure is fun speculating on it!

---

On a somewhat related note: Ford relased Bold Moves 15 yesterday. The topic is The People Mover featuring the Fairlane concept. While the vid is interesting, I think the real jewel is the Ford Concept Gallery that accompanies the vid and shows 26 still images of 50 years of people-mover concept vehicles. Some are so advanced for their day it's hard to believe -- others are just, well, hard to believe ;-) You'll like it, I think.

Unfortunately, I won't be attending SEMA, but I'll be with you in spirit!! I would agree, any of the considered components for the Boss 302 Mustang would certainly be in "stealth" mode at SEMA, disguished as something other than their true intention. Ford isn't going to reveal too much, just enough to generate speculation and gauge interest.

Very interesting people-mover images. Some of those designs back in the '50's and '60's were really out there but very interesting none the less, thanks for sharing!!

[robertlane]

I don't know about this new engine program being used for the Mustang. We're still being told that the 5.4L will be used in the future Boss.

We were also told in Dec 2005 that a 4.6L DOHC engine was being developed for a specialty program - very possibly a Boss; however, it ended up being used in the Bullitt. As for the blurring of the lines, YES this was a problem as far as seperation between Mustang models.

[MustangFanatic]

If Ford doesn't produce a Boss 302 worthy of the original, then I'm seriously reconsidering my loyalty. Ford is baffled why they can't compete and are hemorrhaging money, yet they produce nothing more than tape and stripe packages or ridiculously overpriced, overweight, under-whelming "rich people" toys.

I also fail to understand why Ford would resurrect the Bullitt (sorry Bullitt fans, just my opinion) and leave the Boss totally out of the line-up? To me, it shows that Ford either doesn't comprehend or doesn't care about the fan base that has supported the Mustang all these years. They want affordable performance cars, not "window dressing" or uber-expensive "collector" cars. The Boss offers much more heritage and recognizable appeal than any other Mustang model, particularly for the majority of the fan base that can’t or won’t buy a Shelby. To fail to deliver a model stacked against that objective is short-sighted and will certainly sacrifice both short term profits and long-term loyalty IMHO