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Carroll's GLHS #001 With The Hans Hermann Head

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Something about the way the cams bolted down or were driven off a single sprocket with an accessory drive gear... Can't remember exactly only that the guys doing the research said late VW head valvetrain wouldn't work.

 

DSC04932.jpg

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Looks like there were two 16v intakes used on the VW. See pics below for where the TB mounts.

 

I think the top pic is for a 1.8 and the bottom pic is for the 2.0. Most VW people seem to want the top pic manifold.

 

Steve

 

 

0fce_1.JPG

a305_1.JPG

Edited by shelbymotorsports

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Sounds like partial verification to the 'right' head and 'wrong' head theory...

 

Well, today you can buy and bolt on a Neon head and add an adapter to the cam to run the distributer. The idea of putting on the no flow VW POS isn't even funny. Remember the only 16v head that out flows a DOHC Neon head is a K series Honda, everything else is behind them. Mohler was a 4-5 year straight champ in all motor with a NA Neon running 10 flat, lost finally the win streak to a RWD rotory.

 

As for 001 the idea is really cool but the thing didn't perform very well at all. Car craft had a big shoot out at Shelbys center and included the 001 16v. The performance was nothing less than embarassing. Thing ran 14.7, kidding? Guys are running 10s with street 8v GLHs today. Shelby should have bought the 3 bar map the GN uses and just calibrated it for 18-20 PSI. Then added a real exhaust. Would be much faster for little money. As it stands I've seen stock 8v cars that are faster. I heard rumors in the MP mags that Shelby got some big power out of it later which is more believable for the trouble of a 16v.

 

But make no mistake, the VW head is not the plan. Guys here make less WHP with the 16v VW with big boost and nitrous than 8v Dodges on pump. 400+ WHP 8v Dodges are not that uncommen now. Since the SD / TD world came out of the stone ages with intake manifolds power on them has shot up. I guess I really bring up the power idea as 16v is so much work it better make serious power when finished. My self I've been doing a lot of work with the 655 lately, the big port 2.2 head. I'm begining to think they should have went back wards a few years and made a new intake. The newer the head the worse it flows. The 655 was too much for NA at the time and the 782 is too little for the later turbos lol.

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Just to clarify we are not trying to bolt on the VW 16v head all we are doing is exploring the possibly of using some of the valvetrain in a HH head. That is if it fits.

 

Here are some more pics for you guys.

 

Steve

Carrolls_GLHS54.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS55.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS56.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS57.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS58.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS54.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS55.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS56.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS57.jpg

Carrolls_GLHS58.jpg

Edited by shelbymotorsports

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Notice how they patched in the Shelby name on the intake. I'm assuming it was cut out of a Shelby valve cover.

 

Also notice how the filled in the vac ports on the throttle body.

 

Steve

 

Today you flow a head with the intake bolted up and match flow. That thing is pretty bad. It must have made for another car and added to the 2.2. But what is the question. Clearly they cast the intake and added Shelby later.

 

Rick D in FL mods valve covers and so on to say Shelby, like the R/T engines. Not hard to do really, today though we would have to ruin a Shelby valve cover to make this intake, which would make it harder lol.

 

There may not be room for vac lines on the TB, they could have smacked the hood.

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There may not be room for vac lines on the TB, they could have smacked the hood.

 

I'll have to take a look at that possibility. Most people miss that Carroll's HH car has a regular Omni hood on it for engine clearance. The turbo hoods vent and bracing wouldn't clear the engine so a modified regular Omni hood was used.

 

Steve

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I'll have to take a look at that possibility. Most people miss that Carroll's HH car has a regular Omni hood on it for engine clearance. The turbo hoods vent and bracing wouldn't clear the engine so a modified regular Omni hood was used.

 

Steve

 

Not running a hood pad is enough to get the battery to slap the hood on a Shelby Charger. There just isn't any room. A couple TDers have plenums sticking through the hood just to get them in the car lol. Shelby should have gone with a short runner and larger plenum design and left it up front. Being 2 piece they could have just added a plenum like we do with the 2 piece 8v intakes.

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Been digging deeper into the HH engine this past week. Here's some pics of the modified turbocharger:

It appears to be a modified T1 style compressor housing. It certainly is a T1 style actuator (modified to be adjustable). Looks like the exhaust inlet on the turbine side has been ported quite a bit.

 

Interesting approach.

Edited by sdac guy

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Interesting approach.

 

Yup there's been a few times I've stood there going to myself "ok why did they do it that way" and to answer that I just remind myself that it wasn't until 1989-93 that we really got some good parts from Chrysler and that these guys were working with the early stuff.

 

Gotta keep in mind that the HH head was cast back in 1984 so it's design came even earlier which explains the VW stuff.

 

And if Stoked is viewing this thread can you say 1.7 VW valvetrain?

 

Steve

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Yup there's been a few times I've stood there going to myself "ok why did they do it that way" and to answer that I just remind myself that it wasn't until 1989-93 that we really got some good parts from Chrysler and that these guys were working with the early stuff.
But, the car started life as a GLHS, so it had a brand new T2 style turbo with T2 style actuator already on it. But then of course they had 500 T1 style turbos & actuators laying around ... :doh:

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But, the car started life as a GLHS, so it had a brand new T2 style turbo with T2 style actuator already on it. But then of course they had 500 T1 style turbos & actuators laying around ... :doh:

 

Barry my thought is that this engine was around before GLHS #001 was built. Possibly it was a dyno engine or possibly it was removed from say one of the other test mules. They did have a GLH-T with a HH setup among other test cars.

 

It would make sense to have the drivetrain completed/tested and then dropped into #001. I will try to remember to check the block and see if its the original block for #001. That should point us in the right direction.

 

Steve

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Barry my thought is that this engine was around before GLHS #001 was built. Possibly it was a dyno engine or possibly it was removed from say one of the other test mules. They did have a GLH-T with a HH setup among other test cars.

 

It would make sense to have the drivetrain completed/tested and then dropped into #001. I will try to remember to check the block and see if its the original block for #001. That should point us in the right direction.

 

Steve

What you say there makes complete sense.

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So Steve, don't the new Team Shelby members get an all paid trip out there to meet Mr. Shelby and take a tour? :stirpot: Can't remember where I heard that. :headscratch: Just kidding.

Back to the thread at hand. Did you ever find an early 16V VW head? It would be interesting to know if it the valvetrain would work or not.

Edited by black86glhs

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Interesting that it has the 'universal' or 'Ford style' housing, I agree with Barry, that thing has been ported within an inch of it's life. Stock size compressor wheel but a different trim I think. "O" trim maybe?

 

Someone has been hitting the yards I take it...

 

 

Alan

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Did you ever find an early 16V VW head? It would be interesting to know if it the valvetrain would work or not.

 

Someone has been hitting the yards I take it...

 

Nope haven't had the stamina to walk the yards for a 16v VW head but have been able to some reverse engineering on #001. Fortunately SoCal still has a few good machine shops left over from the good old days and we are getting that much closer to a HH-II engine breathing life into another FWD chassis.

 

Steve

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What r u saying Steve? Is there an engine package on the way with the SAI stamp on it? :lurk:

 

 

Sorry no engine package or HH set-up. It's just too cost prohibitive. I did some quick and dirty cost calculations one day and it would be around $10,000 for a HH 16v kit. Our community just can not support that kind of coin when we have lower cost ways to make the same horsepower. The Lotus head, the Masi head and the Neon head for example.

 

Carroll does want another 16v HH car for his collection so thats what we have been working on. At first it was to be just a duplicate of what he already has, the Omni 001, but since that discussion I'm pretty sure I have him convinced to go a little wilder with the HH-II using the speed tricks that the SD enthusiasts have come up with since the closing of the Whittier facility.

 

Maybe I should talk to Amy about making this a Team Shelby project where you guys could follow along with the build either here in the forums or perhaps the Team Shelby newsletter.

 

Steve

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Sorry no engine package or HH set-up. It's just too cost prohibitive. I did some quick and dirty cost calculations one day and it would be around $10,000 for a HH 16v kit. Our community just can not support that kind of coin when we have lower cost ways to make the same horsepower. The Lotus head, the Masi head and the Neon head for example.

 

Carroll does want another 16v HH car for his collection so thats what we have been working on. At first it was to be just a duplicate of what he already has, the Omni 001, but since that discussion I'm pretty sure I have him convinced to go a little wilder with the HH-II using the speed tricks that the SD enthusiasts have come up with since the closing of the Whittier facility.

 

Maybe I should talk to Amy about making this a Team Shelby project where you guys could follow along with the build either here in the forums or perhaps the Team Shelby newsletter.

 

Steve

I think that is an excellent idea. Either in the letter or here or both quite frankly. Keep us posted(I know you will).

 

Bryan

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Barry my thought is that this engine was around before GLHS #001 was built. Possibly it was a dyno engine or possibly it was removed from say one of the other test mules. They did have a GLH-T with a HH setup among other test cars.

 

It would make sense to have the drivetrain completed/tested and then dropped into #001. I will try to remember to check the block and see if its the original block for #001. That should point us in the right direction.

 

Steve

16vhh.jpg

16vhh.jpg

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Cool pic!

 

You know who's the other guy?

 

And look at all the heads and stuff in the bg!

 

I'm not sure about the other guy. This pic is from a 1987 Swedish car magazine and they printed in the magazine that the other guy was Scott Harvey. We all know that's not Scott Harvey so I figure the swede writer got his notes mixed up.

 

Yup a few neat things in the background. Pic looks to be taken at the Santa Fe Springs facility.

 

Steve

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Another cool pic! Judging by the Faux leather Members Only knock off jacket, that guy may be the Policeman from the Village people. :hysterical:

 

 

Alan

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This is an extremely old thread which I hope to revive.

After many years of working within Chryslers advanced powertrain development group, I somehow desired to retain and protect the mid-80's efforts which include the HH development along with the prototype 1988 SBEC version known today as the 1990+ SBEC controller version for the Lotus Spirit R/T.

ALL dyno data for and about the unique combinations contained in Omni GLHS #001 exists. If there is any interest in nurturing this package into a reality, the software and calibrations related to making it reality should not be considered impossible or obsolete nor limited by the inability to code and calibrate this powertrain - the ability exists and along with the capability to write this software not as a hacked versions of code (common on many forums), it can be compiled and written as it was done in 1987 ... with the same methods used 40yrs ago.

BTW

That is not a T-I style compressor - it is a GN compressor housing with a bolt on flange for the Dodge application.

It was all they had at the time to assist in making the engine breathe with a cooler charge temp, given the PSI and flow demand that exceeded anything Dodge had to offer.

Edited by 5digits
update

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