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shelby07

should we let GM fail

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Seems like more and more we are asked to bailout these Big corporations that fail because its bad for the economy I wish I could get some of this bailout money for my company!

I think if some fail it might show corporate America that were not going to bailout everyone and these companies have to be accountable for there action. :banghead::hysterical::doh:

Edited by shelby07

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VERY Interesting read. YES - LET THEM FILE FOR BANKRUPCY

 

"Foreign-owned manufacturers who build cars with American workers pay wages similar to GM's. But their expenses for benefits are a fraction of GM's. GM is contractually required to support thousands of workers in the UAW's "Jobs Bank" program, which guarantees nearly full wages and benefits for workers who lose their jobs due to automation or plant closure. It supports more retirees than current workers."

 

What the heck is THAT. Receive nearly full pay for not working? NO WONDER the U.S. automakers are in such horrible shape.

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My theoretical answer is No we should not let them fail BUT their books and processes should be gone over with a fine tooth comb, the union DISSOLVED and laws passed to make it a right-to-work state and salaries for EVERYONE brought into respectable, decent ranges which will mean lowering for the most part. They should be stripped to bare bones getting rid or all frivolities and then rebuilt with a system of checks and balances put into place to keep the greedy from getting to much. When and if they ever pay us back then they can be allowed to do business as usual as that is they way it should be, but as long as they are in debt to the U.S. taxpayer they should be held to very strict standards and every penny scrutinized. If the American taxpayer has to bail them out because of their stupidity and greed then they should be spanked but I do not want to see 250,000 people out of work.

 

I also believe in jail time if it can be proved illegal activities and under-the-table deals were happening.

 

 

 

 

Since I know the above will never happen, yes let them fail.

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If they are failing, I say let them go. I dont think the Government should be asked to subsidize these huge corporations. I dont remember getting any checks when things were going well for them, why should OUR tax dollars bail them out?

 

They have ignored the writing on the wall for too many years to NOW be the benefit of a monetary rescue from taxpayers. Some reports say the government would get a share of the company?

 

Yeah, so what.....the Government is world renowned for having its head up its ass when it comes to business, they have their own problems without sharing in the blame when it all goes under anyway AFTER the bailout.

 

Foreign owner car companies ARE HERE employing MANY AMERICANS.......so the whole BUY AMERICAN is a fallacy anyway......who cares where the profit goes, I dont get it whether its GM or Toyota!

 

And keep the profits in the US would mean they (the American car companies) would actually make money, which if you check the records hasnt happened in a long time anyway.

 

ok, I vented....I feel better now.

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While there have been several very valid points that have been brought up, just to play devil's advocate: The major car companies employ a significant amount of people in this country. If they close their doors, all of the people are out of work. That would result in a huge hit to governmental systems like Unemployment and Medicare. If we let the companies fail without the assumption that we'll take care of the workforce, we'd be looking at conditions similar to those that lead to the Great Depression, which is the last thing this country needs. The question that should be asked is which would be cheaper - bailing out the companies [and enforcing structural changes that allow the companies to be profitable] or letting them fail and then supporting their workforce?

 

Matt

 

Also - I have to ask why this is in the Shelby GT section and not the general Team Shelby discussion section.

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but at least once they go on unemplyment they will get busy finding another way to earn and make a living.or at least the survivors will.

if we bail them out, what happens next year? and the year after?

 

you are still stuck with a couple of hundred thousand workers dependant on you for the foreseeable future.

 

Do we bail them out again in 2011 or 2012?

 

Cause bailing them out fixes NOTHING.

It only prolongs the problem.

 

As long as we give them a net, they will depend on it.

 

And if you think they will all be dependant on public assistance, yes that will be true initially, but they will eventually realize they must do something for themselves and their families other than wait around for another or continued handouts.

 

The landscape of our economy is changing. If we put out all this money just to preserve a failing business, we gain nothing.

Put that money into retraining the work force and give them a real shot at moving on to a prosperous life.

Sounds better to me than keeping them where they are and hoping for the best.

 

Be realistic, Toyota and others have been kicking the butt of the big 3 for years, slowly taking over market share......keeping them in business wont change that. It only prolong the inevitable pain of change. I say we get going on the change now before we spend billions figuring that out and end up in the same boat anyway.

 

Which would you rather do.....

 

let the companies tank and retrain the workforce now for a better tomorrow OR

 

bail the companies out spending billions only to do it again and then spend billions to retrain the workforce after that anyway when they eventually tank.

 

you decide!

 

Tough love, sink or swim, dont keep waiting for Mommy to come help you. Help yourself!

 

I say letting them go under actually improves our economic future in the long run, as all those UAW

workers find other lines of work instead of leeching off a troubled industry.

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Gentlemen,

 

As a General Motors dealer for over a quarter of a century I was witness to General Motors signing their own death warned 20 years ago when they acquiesced to union contracts containing retirement, medical, and guaranteed employment provisions that were certain to bankrupt the company in outlying years. Roger Smith and following CEOs didn't give a damn because they knew they would be retired and long gone by the time these chickens came home to roost. Our nation is doing the same thing right now with Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and federal worker pension benefits. General Motors is legally and contractually locked in to so many obligations with dealers, retirees, and current workers that there is absolutely no way this company can be made financially viable without filing bankruptcy. Any federal bailout money will be quickly burned through as we throw good money after bad. The only way General Motors can continue to exist long term without filing bankruptcy would be to provide them with a PERMANANT flow of US government bailout money paid for by the taxpayers (just like Amtrak).

 

General Motors is insolvent. Let them go bankrupt. The valuable pieces will be purchased by other viable automakers and American consumers will still be able to buy Corvettes, Cadillacs, and some of the other more desirable General Motors products.

 

Chip

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Gentlemen,

 

As a General Motors dealer for over a quarter of a century I was witness to General Motors signing their own death warned 20 years ago when they acquiesced to union contracts containing retirement, medical, and guaranteed employment provisions that were certain to bankrupt the company in outlying years. Roger Smith and following CEOs didn't give a damn because they knew they would be retired and long gone by the time these chickens came home to roost. Our nation is doing the same thing right now with Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and federal worker pension benefits. General Motors is legally and contractually locked in to so many obligations with dealers, retirees, and current workers that there is absolutely no way this company can be made financially viable without filing bankruptcy. Any federal bailout money will be quickly burned through as we throw good money after bad. The only way General Motors can continue to exist long term without filing bankruptcy would be to provide them with a PERMANANT flow of US government bailout money paid for by the taxpayers (just like Amtrak).

 

General Motors is insolvent. Let them go bankrupt. The valuable pieces will be purchased by other viable automakers and American consumers will still be able to buy Corvettes, Cadillacs, and some of the other more desirable General Motors products.

 

Chip

 

Giving them money to help bail them out is only prolonging what WILL happen in the next couple of years anyway. The ONLY way for them to recover from this is to reorganize and restructure the company (along with Ford and Chrysler also).

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Giving them money to help bail them out is only prolonging what WILL happen in the next couple of years anyway. The ONLY way for them to recover from this is to reorganize and restructure the company (along with Ford and Chrysler also).

:yup:

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Gentlemen,

 

As a General Motors dealer for over a quarter of a century I was witness to General Motors signing their own death warned 20 years ago when they acquiesced to union contracts containing retirement, medical, and guaranteed employment provisions that were certain to bankrupt the company in outlying years. Roger Smith and following CEOs didn't give a damn because they knew they would be retired and long gone by the time these chickens came home to roost. Our nation is doing the same thing right now with Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and federal worker pension benefits. General Motors is legally and contractually locked in to so many obligations with dealers, retirees, and current workers that there is absolutely no way this company can be made financially viable without filing bankruptcy. Any federal bailout money will be quickly burned through as we throw good money after bad. The only way General Motors can continue to exist long term without filing bankruptcy would be to provide them with a PERMANANT flow of US government bailout money paid for by the taxpayers (just like Amtrak).

 

General Motors is insolvent. Let them go bankrupt. The valuable pieces will be purchased by other viable automakers and American consumers will still be able to buy Corvettes, Cadillacs, and some of the other more desirable General Motors products.

 

Chip

 

+!

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Let the whole shebang fail, Force Congress to use it's legal authority to shut down the Federal Reserve.............. Ok I'm all better now, I said it!

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Gentlemen,

 

As a General Motors dealer for over a quarter of a century I was witness to General Motors signing their own death warned 20 years ago when they acquiesced to union contracts containing retirement, medical, and guaranteed employment provisions that were certain to bankrupt the company in outlying years. Roger Smith and following CEOs didn't give a damn because they knew they would be retired and long gone by the time these chickens came home to roost. Our nation is doing the same thing right now with Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and federal worker pension benefits. General Motors is legally and contractually locked in to so many obligations with dealers, retirees, and current workers that there is absolutely no way this company can be made financially viable without filing bankruptcy. Any federal bailout money will be quickly burned through as we throw good money after bad. The only way General Motors can continue to exist long term without filing bankruptcy would be to provide them with a PERMANANT flow of US government bailout money paid for by the taxpayers (just like Amtrak).

 

General Motors is insolvent. Let them go bankrupt. The valuable pieces will be purchased by other viable automakers and American consumers will still be able to buy Corvettes, Cadillacs, and some of the other more desirable General Motors products.

 

Chip

 

If it comes to it, and it looks like its heading that way, the Big 3 should file Chapter 11 in lieu of Chapter 7. In that way they can reorganize, reject contracts (including the outlandish UAW contracts), continue to operate, restructure and land get back on their feet...on their own. I'm opposed to all these bailouts. I can't figure out what form of government we're turning into with everything that's going on, but its not a capitalist democracy....

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Bottom Line..........

 

If they fail who will we have to beat on the street? :shift:

The Dodge is too easy. :hysterical:

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I'm not sure I would bail them out, especially Chrysler and GM. Bailing out Chrysler equals helping Cerberus and I'm not sure whyt this type of investor would deserve help. They actually purchased Chrysler simply to resell it short term and make a quick and easy profit, but their move was poorly timed and backfired. Too bad for them but I can't see why taxpayers would pay for it. Nobody forced them to enter the auto industry, only a little over a year ago!

 

As far as GM is concerned, they were repeatedly told that their current brand structure (8 brands for 20-25% market share) did not make sense. Still, they stuck with it and as a consequence, have to spread their marketing, design and engineering resources over way too many models. They also stuck with a CEO that achieved very little over the past 8 years, leading them to record losses and declining market share.

 

Ford has shown more willingness to move forward, especially since Mullaly was hired as CEO. They seem to have a plan for the future and contrary to GM, have decided not to cut their capital spendings, which is essential if you want to bring competitive new products to market. They also made sure they had some extra cash which should help them make it through '09, maybe even without the need for a bailout.

Edited by YZD263

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I was watching the Big 3 CEO's talking before the Senate panel today. A government official was asked to rank the companies as best to worst financially. He ranked them:

 

Ford - best

Chrysler

GM - worst

 

It was also interesting that GM made money in most overseas countries like Russia, China, and Brazil. But they couldn't make money in the US. Two biggest issues were high wages/benefits and that when production slows down and GM has to idle a plant the workers still get 95% of salary for doing nothing.

 

Tomorrow the Big 3 will give testimony to the House panel.

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This hits a little closer to home for the Mustang enthusiast. Here's one you can buy...

 

TROY, Mich., Nov 11, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Saleen Automotive, America's premiere automotive lifestyle brand, today announced that is has retained an investment banking advisor to explore the sale of its global auto operations and to assess other strategic initiatives.

Saleen has engaged William Blair & Company, L.L.C. to provide independent advice to the management and board of directors as the company continues toward a sale. The board has set a tentative timetable to receive preliminary indications of interest from prospective parties over the next two months and plans on finalizing a transaction in early 2009.

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According to the Indianapolis Star:

Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007

 

Richard Wagoner the CEO of GM has made $25 Million dollars over the last 5 years. While during his tenure the stock performance is -11 % what a great return for stock holders.

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/12/lead_b...er-Jr_SOX2.html

 

3 years ago Collins and Aikman with a union work force and Tier 1 supplier of carpeted mats to GM and the automotive industry filed for bankruptcy and our family business got stuck with a $350,000 debt, that was never repaid, they are now out of business. We are still in business and union free (until HR 800 passes the senate and is signed into law)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_&_Aikman

 

Take care,

Andrew

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Whether the big 3 become the big 2 or 1,it has to happen! We just cant continue to throw cash at the problem and hope that our way of life will not change. That mentality has cause the problem from the get go. Lets face it there are to many cars out there and not enough buyers. I have a friend God bless his soul that is still paying on his first car form ten years ago. If you cant afford to buy it you shouldn't buy!! The practice of rolling it over into another car loan has caught up with the industry. Oh MR. JONES you owe more than your trade no problem we can help. When Toyota can sell cars and over take GM as the top seller with only 1500 car dealership and the General has 7000 dealership its only com sense that tells you something has to change! Our fathers and mother learned there lesson and so will we! The American people are resilient and we can over come but we need to stop over spending at home and in business. The CEOs don't understand this yet and we need to send them a clear message. If we don't our children's children will be hurt :banghead: God bless this great country of ours :happy feet:

Edited by shelby07

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there are pros and cons for all three auto makers filing for bankruptcie. They can do away with lots of the fat that the UAW has for its auto workers ... my concern is that I wouldnt want it to swing way to the other side to its way to much in favor the manufactures.

 

Working for a Ford store ... Ive seen our profits drop and go red .... its been the ugliest 2 years of my life. I think a low interest loan thats defered over a few years before payments are due would be the better approach. Have the auto makers come up with a good restructure program that makes sense and than give them enough money to last through these ugly times. Only problem with a loan .... by not filing BK .... you dont have the ability to restructure all your agreements that have been holding u down ...

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bottom line is, like it or not, we live in free market capitalist society. once our gov bails out these companies, manages their restructuring and attempts to profit from their shares and redistribute the wealth, well, that no longer sounds like a free market capitalist society to me; sounds a lot more like a socialist society. but what the heck, that's where we're headed anyway, right? let's go ahead and bail them out and get this show on the road. socializing health care and business will be huge leap in that direction.

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Guest markham51

Under normal circumstances I would say...let whatever happens, happens.

 

This is NOT about GM, this is about the OVERALL ECONOMY.

 

I do believe if we let them twist in the wind AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME the damage to the OVERALL economy will be catastrophic.

 

If you think things are bad right now....just wait.

 

If unemployment reaches 10pct all bets are off.

 

I spend my time in the financial services industry and real estate development. I see behind the scenes every day. Things are scary right now, this is NOT normal times. The bankers have us by the short and curlies.

 

The economy is cycling down at a rapid pace. We are in very dangerous times, not the time to roll the dice on an entire industry and effectively the entire economy.

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I think u guys should sell ur Mustangs and buy camry's, hop them up and blog about it on " I love foriegn cars and lower wages for America.com" :doh: C.E.O.'s need the pay cuts not the hard working men and woman who cannot change what the uppers from their companies or union decide for them! We all need to Be American & Buy American whenever and wherever possible! If i call someone to my house for their services and they pull up in a Toyota, I will tell them" no thanks sorry" every and anytime

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Anyone wanna pitch in and buy the *New* Ford Performance Automobile Company of North America with me? :happy feet:

 

Great idea Hors I'm all in, I'll take 25%, no need to be greedy.

 

 

CHAPTER 13 IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO DETROIT. They all need to reorganize, get rid of the rediculous Collective Bargaining agreements and become more competitive.

 

The Asians build cars for around 45.00/hour total labor costs and Detroit is around 70.00?

 

WE ALL SHOULD COLLECTIVELY PETITION DC TO CAN THEIR REDICULOUS C.A.F.E STANDARDS! The earth has been warming and cooling for thousands of years and suddenly since man, 100 years, we are to blame for the whole damn thing? WOW Kool Aid drinkers in the Hen House. OMG the sky is falling! But I digress!

 

Happy Thanksgiving Hors.

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