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kahmann

Shelby sued by Plasan

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I'd say that's a decent summary of what's happening. Seems a shame that it looks as if a "lose-lose" situation is developing.

 

I think Mr Black and others who apparently find pleasure in this kind of "negotiation" should take to heart the teachings of Malcolm Gladwell, and realize that after the first few statements, little is added to the field of useful facts and opinions.

 

Mr 68fastback, is the "Arthur C Clark" in your signature the same as the "Arthur C Clarke" whose works are supported by foundations and societies? (Oddly enough, about 3,240,000 entries on Google match your spelling, while about 2,210,000 get it right. Really odd)

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

Hey Frank, thanks! I'll add that "e" to Clark wink.gif

 

Dan...

 

 

[edit} if I can ever figure out where I get to my sig now!

Edited by 68fastback

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"debacle" at the time...but, settled to great mutual satisfaction without the need for the courts, as many of these things go.

 

As in that one, there are always two sides to every story (maybe even 3) and usually a whole lot more facts than what would appear in an internet post of a filing.

 

Apparently, these hood guys were a Ford supplier, part of the KR program at SA.

 

I remember talking to the guys there in Vegas during that program...and that they were constantly backordered on hoods.

At one point they had all 1700 cars in cold storage (indoors) for months in Vegas waiting for them

 

Somewhere I have pics of all the lifts with cars on them, without hoods.

 

And, the filing of the suit says they still want to be paid a delivery bonus?

 

Sometimes, things do need to be brought to the courts to settle an issue or two.

 

(BTW...the name change has absolutely nothing to do with this....Shelby Autos was not brought down in the change...they just wanted to revert to the old company's name, now that it was clear.)

 

 

 

Hi Ron, havent' seen you around in long time -- happy new year!

 

...possibly if the KRs were built 6-12 months earlier (e.g. on schedule) that would not have been a problem -- who knows... ;)

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"debacle" at the time...but, settled to great mutual satisfaction without the need for the courts, as many of these things go.

 

As in that one, there are always two sides to every story (maybe even 3) and usually a whole lot more facts than what would appear in an internet post of a filing.

 

Apparently, these hood guys were a Ford supplier, part of the KR program at SA.

 

I remember talking to the guys there in Vegas during that program...and that they were constantly backordered on hoods.

At one point they had all 1700 cars in cold storage (indoors) for months in Vegas waiting for them

 

Somewhere I have pics of all the lifts with cars on them, without hoods.

 

And, the filing of the suit says they still want to be paid a delivery bonus?

 

Sometimes, things do need to be brought to the courts to settle an issue or two.

 

(BTW...the name change has absolutely nothing to do with this....Shelby Autos was not brought down in the change...they just wanted to revert to the old company's name, now that it was clear.)

 

 

I remember that.

 

LasVegasSAIPics2008012.jpg

 

LasVegasSAIPics2008023.jpg

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I think SAI, or SA, or whoever holds the umbrella in the wind these days will need to make some kind of positioning statement or press release on this. Remember the SAAC fiasco? Lack of a statement on that caused rumors to run wild. Maybe this time around a press release will happen before it's too late.

 

There's always two sides to every story and SA(I) needs to crisply position theirs asap, imo.

 

 

As was mentioned, CS will no doubt be asked by his counsel to refrain from commenting publicly regarding the matter. My understanding, is that the original damaged hood and insurance company issue went all the way to Mulally's office. You'll find mention of it on the web if you look hard enough

 

 

Nothing, because they can't get one until they pay for the 1,747 they already received??

 

A point about the quality that seems to be raised above............I just want to be clear, are folks suggesting that possibly the hoods were not of top quality (not typical of Plasan products I understand) and that possibly due to that, they decided to not pay?? Seems odd to me then that they would still use a allegedly subpar product on the car and still sell for the original markups. I think this argument is FOS. Product ordered, product delivered, product used and not returned = pay the dang bill. Pure and simple.

 

At this point, knowing what we know, I agree with everything you've said, Mike.

 

 

If the CF parts were the reason the KR's were delayed, and SAI had penlties for late delivery, they would have a claim against Plason. It's that simple.

 

Exactly.

 

Plason admits in their complaint they missed the contractural delivery date and claims they negotiated an extension. This may or may not be accurate depending on who you ask. They are also requesting venue be in their home state and a Jury trial which would be in their favor. IMO a Jury trial for this type of dispute would be a little unusual. I would find it hard to believe the original contract language did not address the method and location for disputes to be settled. Arbirtration would be the normal route.

 

This is a typical dispute over performance and payment, nothing more and does not reflect badly on SAI rgardless of what Mr. Black thinks. It happens many times each day in this country.

 

It would appear that Plasan employees put in quite a bit of overtime to make this happen. Ask the guy that put in the time how he'd feel about not getting his due and he'll let you know in a heartbeat. Plasan began manufacturing the hoods in late 2007 (Common Allegations, #10). They want their compensation.

 

I suspect that one of the reasons Plasan requested a trial by jury is that they have witnesses that would testify that they were present at the alleged 11/05/08 meeting, and that an extension was granted at that time (Common Allegations, #13). Then when it is stated that "Defendant made a clear and unambiguous promise to Plaintiff that it would pay Plaintiff for Employee Incentive Program..." (Count III - Promissory Estoppel, #39) I suspect this was at a regular or special called meeting and that minutes were taken and are in each parties' possession.

 

 

I remember talking to the guys there in Vegas during that program...and that they were constantly backordered on hoods.

At one point they had all 1700 cars in cold storage (indoors) for months in Vegas waiting for them

 

Somewhere I have pics of all the lifts with cars on them, without hoods.

 

And, the filing of the suit says they still want to be paid a delivery bonus?

 

Sometimes, things do need to be brought to the courts to settle an issue or two.

 

Scheduling the cars for this build, no doubt, had Shelby taking cars into his possession well before the MY KR program could be completed. A modern day JIT system is nice, but doesn't always work that way. Look at the scheduled times in the filing. We'll soon see if Shelby's expected delivery dates (and it looks like there were many) were met. The mere mention of the Incentive Program has me thinking that Plasan had initially stated that they would need either more time or greater compensation to meet various production schedules.

 

 

Actually they must, they will need to file a Statement of Defense to defend the claim and that will be Public Record also for all to read and form an opinion. The fact that FORD has been named in this action should make things very interesting.

 

The TS Police will not be able to delete that post.

 

While Ford isn't named as a Defendant, there is mention of Shelby 'outfitting' a special Mustang on behalf of Ford. As you've mentioned, it will be very interesting to see what kind of agreements there are/were between Shelby. I'd love to find out what the agreement was/is to use the 'Shelby' name per vehicle, etc. Anyone know what the typical required response time would be for the Statement of Defense (in general)?

 

This. If Shelby Automobiles, Inc. no longer exists, who cares if there's a judgment against them for 6 million. Good luck enforcing it.

I'm afraid to even imagine what the impact on our warranties could be if they really wanted to push it.

 

Doesn't matter if they change their name. If there is a judgement, it'll get paid. Any warranty you have exclusive of the factory Ford warranty will most likely have long since expired by the time this gets settled, unless it is out of court. There's always the opportunity to appeal.

 

 

If I say anything else this post will vanish but I will say that Plasan are not angels in this they NEVER delivered as promised!!!!!!!!

 

Were you privy to the specific production and delivery schedules as set forth in the contractual agreements between Plasan and Shelby? Were you present at the regularly scheduled meetings between Plasan and Shelby? We'd all be interested in the meeting minutes if you were.

 

As to what how the hoods came to Shelby, take a look at the Shelby 2008 Annual magazine (orange SS on cover), page 61. There is a semi detailed write-up of a KR build at the Shelby facility. There are two items of interest in relation to the KR hood. The first shows two Shelby employees holding a painted and striped KR hood as they carry it to the car they were converting. The caption reads "since this KR build was so early in production, the hood was already striped..." and implies that most KR hoods were not going to come with the stripes applied. Makes sense, as this would give Shelby some leeway as to stripe color as production moved along. The second photo shows what looks to be the same KR build at a different location. The caption reads "after a testdrive, the KR's go to a striping facility in another building. Shelby Autos farms this work to a shop down the street in the Las Vegas Speedway facility".

 

It would appear as though the striping was mostly done after the hoods were delivered by Plasan. As to paint, the Memorandum of Understanding (attachment 1) has mention of the number of each color of hood they agreed to have delivered, along with shipping dates (regarding notification dated 12/03/08). It reads "Plasan agrees to deliver Shelby Automobiles Las Vegas production location at least 1747 complete sets of carbon fiber components for the GT500KR by 12/19/2008. Based on notification dated 12/3/08, the plan(n)ed buildout is as follows. Black 91, Silver 149, Red 51, Blue 43. In essence, the figure we now see mentioned (albeit including an unidentified amount for the splitter and mirror covers) is for a painted hood. At this point I suspect the hood was ready for installation as well. I'm not talking about popping the windshield squirters in (etc), just that the hoods were shipped finish painted.

 

Tob

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Rob, I see approximately 60 or 70 cars in that photo. I'd like to see the photos with the other 1,6** other units in cold storage (inside).

 

If anyone has those photos, by all means post them up.

 

Tob

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No offense, but I dont see how this is any of our business at this point. Lawsuit filings are one sided and paint the best argument possible, not the reality. Why dont we just stay out of this as no one here can give any information of authority. I wouldnt allow my employees saying one single thing over a pending suit, and this is no different. I hope this all turns out with an acceptable resolution for both sides, but getting worked up over a filing is like building a bomb shelter after seeing 2012. :hysterical:

 

Nothing good can come out of uninformed speculation, and are probably only going to piss off the wrong people to be a part of this group.

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I couldn't disagree more. What started when someone sustained damage to their car has ballooned into a PR nightmare. The numbers Shelby has quoted for the KR hood are available all over the web. They aren't speculation. Now the numbers are coming out as to what Shelby was charged, albeit through a legal action. Nobody here is getting 'worked up' over the truth. Are you?

 

If you'd like to close your eyes and look the other way, then by all means go ahead. In the meantime, I'll take the truth in bits and pieces if I have to, as soon as it becomes available.

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I believe Rob is correct that most of the pre-build KRs were in storage at one point, but unlike Computerworks suggestion that this was *beacuse* of hood delays, it's my understanding it was *because* Ford was delivering them on the contract schedule but SAI was busy doing SSs and not able ramp KR production so was forced to store them on their dime because Ford was not about to twiddle the contract schedule on the line to accommodate their tardiness ...just saying that was the rumor I'd heard at the time -- wish I could remember where I heard that, but who knows what actually occurred.

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I couldn't disagree more. What started when someone sustained damage to their car has ballooned into a PR nightmare. The numbers Shelby has quoted for the KR hood are available all over the web. They aren't speculation. Now the numbers are coming out as to what Shelby was charged, albeit through a legal action. Nobody here is getting 'worked up' over the truth. Are you?

 

If you'd like to close your eyes and look the other way, then by all means go ahead. In the meantime, I'll take the truth in bits and pieces if I have to, as soon as it becomes available.

 

 

Tob,

I would expect that SAI will seek a protective order concerning contractual matters with Plasan, so all we may hear going forward is that the matter has been settled.

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Doesn't matter if they change their name. If there is a judgement, it'll get paid. Any warranty you have exclusive of the factory Ford warranty will most likely have long since expired by the time this gets settled, unless it is out of court. There's always the opportunity to appeal.

 

 

 

 

That's untrue.

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There is always two sides on a story like this. Let the judge or both parties sort that out.

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I just read the whole thread!

 

Why is it that most folks that are busting Shelbys balls on this have less than 20 posts? I have no problem with folks that NEVER post and just lurk! Thats great, but of all the threads on here this is the only one thats got yall attention? I could be wrong and have been and will be again, but it looks like yall only come on here to stir the pot!

 

Being part of the "TS police" havent got a PM asking to watch out for these threads and kill them!

 

I dont see how they are doing anyone any good, but its not up to me to kill them.

 

MM

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I just read the whole thread!

 

Why is it that most folks that are busting Shelbys balls on this have less than 20 posts? I have no problem with folks that NEVER post and just lurk! Thats great, but of all the threads on here this is the only one thats got yall attention? I could be wrong and have been and will be again, but it looks like yall only come on here to stir the pot!

 

Being part of the "TS police" havent got a PM asking to watch out for these threads and kill them!

 

I dont see how they are doing anyone any good, but its not up to me to kill them.

 

MM

 

Well said, Michael!

 

Jim

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The wierd part about this is those of us that really know have been laid off or left the company.....wonder if that would have an impact on legal maneuvers.

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That's untrue.

 

 

Cute, but a two word retort just doesn't cut it. If you have some factual based knowledge related to the subject, let's have it.

 

And Bill, laid off or not, if you are needed you'll have a knock at the door or a package in the mailbox.

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This is nobody's business. It's only news that a suit was filed and when the results of the suit are announced. Beyond that, any interest or demand for "more information" is consistant with those who are interested in stories by the National Enquirer, Jerry Springer show, and other tabloid journalism. How about we just let the parties work out their issues and let's start talking about the cars and all of the positive things going on in the world. Just one person's opinion.

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Cute, but a two word retort just doesn't cut it. If you have some factual based knowledge related to the subject, let's have it.

 

And Bill, laid off or not, if you are needed you'll have a knock at the door or a package in the mailbox.

 

 

I'm not trying to be cute. Simply trying to avoid people becoming confused by posts that have no basis in either fact or law. As for factual based knowledge related to the subject of law and escaping liability for judgments, I see you are in New York. Please feel free to visit me at my consumer defense law firm (www.murthalawfirm.com), and I will explain it to you any time you'd like. Be sure to bring your Shelby. :shift:

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I'm not trying to be cute. Simply trying to avoid people becoming confused by posts that have no basis in either fact or law. As for factual based knowledge related to the subject of law and escaping liability for judgments, I see you are in New York. Please feel free to visit me at my consumer defense law firm (www.murthalawfirm.com), and I will explain it to you any time you'd like. Be sure to bring your Shelby. :shift:

 

 

It would appear that many here are confused whether they attempt to understand this action or not. No need to explain your interpretation of the law to me. I'm well aware of hiding from judgements. I responded to your suggestion regarding subsequent warranty modification to this action. I stand by what I said.

 

And hey, I'm a tort reform guy, so I probably won't be making the trek. But the Shelby will be here if you happen to be out my way.

 

any interest or demand for "more information" is consistant with those who are interested in stories by the National Enquirer, Jerry Springer show, and other tabloid journalism.

 

Get off the pipe. The issue began when a KR owner had 'difficulty' in obtaining a replacement KR hood from CS after a collision. That generated quite a bit of interest, especially in regards to Shelby's pricing schedule. This in turn resulted in Robert generating a thread regarding a 'new' price structure. Within a week, an article popped up on Autoblog.

 

Now the legal action by Plasan.

 

So...what was that about tabloid journalism?

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Guys, we will publish a formal statement soon......but

 

The hoods never cost 20K to a dealer, whoever published that is not telling the truth. The hoods were 3800.00 no paint, no prep, no strips, no shipping.

 

The production of the KR was over 7 months late due to hoods

The cars were all stored inside buildings for months at a huge cost.

The Kr hood never met full production in 12 month.

We incurred full staff, full storage and full inventory on all parts but hoods for over 7 months without payment.

 

We have hoods for replacements and that is not an issue.

 

SAI is currently in 2 lawsuits only. Carroll brand has always been abused by people who think they can take advantage of it and Carroll and his legal team are diligent in responding. The name is as great as is is, because it is constantly being defended against people who use and abuse it.

 

As with anything there is always more then one side, I expect everyone to reach a conclusion after all info has been brought forward. Or you can just slam us and hate us as some like to do. Either way we will do what we feel is right for this brand.

 

 

Amy

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I think that sums it up...in other words let the parties work it out, as we have always seen in the past, and enjoy your car.

 

shift.gif

 

Ditto...

 

Tom

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+1 Lawdude, Tom, and Jeff.

 

Thanks for posting, Amy. :happy feet:

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Well put Amy!

 

Chris, Tom, Jeff, Lawdude, Jim - good comments.

 

NOW, LET ME HIGHJACK THIS STUPID POST - VEGAS BABY...... THREE DAYS TO THE 2010 BASH :dance:

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As with anything there is always more then one side, I expect everyone to reach a conclusion after all info has been brought forward. Or you can just slam us and hate us as some like to do. Either way we will do what we feel is right for this brand.

 

Amy

That is what I said. Well said, Amy.

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Let the Highjacking contitue!!!

 

 

"Im leaving on a Jet Plane dont know when Ill be back again!!" (Well Ill be back Sunday night)

 

 

See yall in Vegas!!!!

 

MM

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Umm...

So does all this mean that my dreams of a light weight, high quality carbon fiber hood in either KR, SS, or stock form is never going to happen? :cry:

 

Still dreaming of a CF SS hood.

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Well put Amy!

 

Chris, Tom, Jeff, Lawdude, Jim - good comments.

 

NOW, LET ME HIGHJACK THIS STUPID POST - VEGAS BABY...... THREE DAYS TO THE 2010 BASH :dance:

 

I think that makes me +6.....either way....see you all in LA in 2 days! :happy feet: :happy feet: :salute:

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