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On 4/9/2018 at 2:08 PM, DrHawkeye said:

So how did you feel a couple years ago when the powers that be changed Mary from a virgin to just a young girl because they had the translation wrong for the last couple thousand of years?  And why is Christmas on the same day of the year, but Easter uses the Jewish calendar?  Seems like all other deaths in recorded history on a day that didn't change from year to year.

And verification from the Dead Sea Scrolls don't give it any more legitimacy, those were also written by man.  How many versions of the bible are there?  There should be only one, but there isn't.  Right there is a problem.  And why do the catholics have a bible that is different from what other christians use?  And why is the book of Mormon not accepted as fact?  It was written the same way the bible was written.

And for the mods, these are legitimate questions, no abuse or insults going on here.

Ok Doc, I'll take a shot at it, although it looks like you're looking for proof and in all the wrong places at that!

1- Mary herself says that she is a virgin in Luke 1:34.

2- Christmas is not a holiday declared by God "officially." The actual date is not important.

3- "Easter," or the Christian Resurrection Day, coincides with the Jewish holiday, Passover. "Church" leaders keep "Easter" on the Jewish equivalent calendar, that's why it moves.

4- The Dead Sea Scrolls help us to verify that the original text's integrity were preserved correct, and what we have had handed down through the millennia has actually been verified correct by them.

5- There are different translations of the same original texts, not different texts. There's only one. 

 6- Catholics keep the Apocrypha (or deuterocanonical) books in their Bible for many reasons but basically for learning but not doctrine. Protestants, Hebrews and Jews do not because they were not claimed to be divinely inspired and the Hebrews also said because they were actually too new at the time. The books are very useful and contain important history in them to fill in the 400-year gap between the Old and New Testaments in the Protestant Bible. Other than the Catholic Bible having extra books in it, it is the same as the Protestant one. 

7- The book of Mormon was written by a man who claimed to have been instructed by an angel (sound familiar?) in the 1800's which contradicted divine scripture. 

If you really want to know the Truth, Doc, you're right, you can't find it looking for flaws in the physical. You can find it in the scriptures themselves because they are divinely inspired, but most of all, the Spirit of Truth will come to you and teach you if you sincerely want it and ask. 

 

A big Thank You to Z-Man for stepping up and saving this topic!

 

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And the answers (?) you gave go back to what I previously said about blind faith.  You believe the bible is 'divinely inspired', so you're ok with the contradictions in everything else.  I've read the bible several times, and attended bible study for several years, so I'm quite familiar with what it says.  And until I started thinking critically about it, I had no problems believing it.  Then those questions came up, and blind faith wasn't enough anymore.  Regarding your answers: to #1, I'm guessing you haven't read that religious scholars a few years ago realized they were translating stuff wrong, and that's when Mary became a 'young girl' and not a virgin, because that's what was being translated incorrectly.  That kind of throws a monkey wrench into the whole 'virgin birth' idea.  #2- I guess it's a good thing the date for Christmas isn't important, because it definitely didn't happen in Dec, but it was a good date for the Christians to steal from the Pagans in their effort to convert everybody.  #3- Easter really doesn't coincide with Passover, but for the early church leaders to decide to keep it on a Sun in Spring just really doesn't make much sense.  #5- different translations/different books, to me that's about the same, but if this is really the word of God, there really can be only one translation.  But even in English there is still the King James, New International, New American Standard, English Standard, New King James, New Revised Standard, Lexham English, etc, etc, for over 40 different VERSIONS.  That sounds very confusing and maybe even contradictory.  #7- This one really bugs me, because the book of Mormon came about in similar ways to certain parts of the Bible, but people don't want to believe him.   Why is it ok for God, or angels, to speak to people 2000+ years ago and that is to be accepted as fact, yet, it happened again a hundred or so years ago, and this guys a crack-pot?  Makes no sense.

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Dr Hawkeye brings up some interesting points, but it all boils down to either believing or not believing.  If someone wants to label that 'blind faith", I won't argue.  If the group of us involved in this discussion are Christians,  we all believe in the same God, and shouldn't be looking for things that separate us, but rather, things that unite us.  The good Doctor said that he was a Baptist until he started questioning things, and those questions led him along a different path.  I think that is a smart and healthy approach to ones faith, especially if they can't get past the "'blind faith' hurdle.  There are many paths to God....seek the one that speaks to you and you can believe in.  Every denomination will argue it is the 'right' one.  We know they can't all be the right one, and we won't truly know which one is 'right' until our days on this Earth are over and we enter the next realm.  I have made my choice, and placed my faith where I feel it best fits.  Does that mean anyone who doesn't believe exactly what I believe is wrong, is a heretic, or doomed to Hell....I don't think so.  I would gladly break bread with anyone who has faith. 

As far as some of your questions, Secondo has pointed out there is one original text.  Many men have translated it.  Men make mistakes.  Two men can see and hear the same thing, and interpret it differently, so I'm not surprised there are variations in the work of man, and multiple versions of their translations.  I haven't personally seen the original text, nor do I speak Aramaic (assuming that's the language they were written in), so I can't tell you which version is correct.  Each person needs to make their own choice.

I'm not familiar with the "young girl" versus Virgin debate....I need to educate myself......but I know where my faith lies and what I believe.

Yes, Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th.  That date was appropriated by early Christians to coincide with an existing pagan celebration, to ease the conversion of the pagans to Christianity.  As much as Easter moves from year to year, it obviously isn't on the exact day of the Resurrection either.  

Mormon's (and I had to Google this to be sure), are Christian, but hold other beliefs (or dis-beliefs) that do not correspond with either being a Catholic or a Protestant.  They are their own denomination.  Who is to say their leader didn't hear an angel?  I may not believe it, but many do.  Time will tell.

I guess my religion has taught me tolerance and acceptance, but still give me the strength to stand up for what I believe.

Jesus wasn't all forgiveness and gentility.  He also was known to flip over the vendors tables in his Fathers house and then chase people around with a whip...sounds like my kind of guy.

 

 

   

  

   

 

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38 minutes ago, Z-man said:

Dr Hawkeye brings up some interesting points, but it all boils down to either believing or not believing.  If someone wants to label that 'blind faith", I won't argue.  If the group of us involved in this discussion are Christians,  we all believe in the same God, and shouldn't be looking for things that separate us, but rather, things that unite us.  The good Doctor said that he was a Baptist until he started questioning things, and those questions led him along a different path.  I think that is a smart and healthy approach to ones faith, especially if they can't get past the "'blind faith' hurdle.  There are many paths to God....seek the one that speaks to you and you can believe in.  Every denomination will argue it is the 'right' one.  We know they can't all be the right one, and we won't truly know which one is 'right' until our days on this Earth are over and we enter the next realm.  I have made my choice, and placed my faith where I feel it best fits.  Does that mean anyone who doesn't believe exactly what I believe is wrong, is a heretic, or doomed to Hell....I don't think so.  I would gladly break bread with anyone who has faith. 

As far as some of your questions, Secondo has pointed out there is one original text.  Many men have translated it.  Men make mistakes.  Two men can see and hear the same thing, and interpret it differently, so I'm not surprised there are variations in the work of man, and multiple versions of their translations.  I haven't personally seen the original text, nor do I speak Aramaic (assuming that's the language they were written in), so I can't tell you which version is correct.  Each person needs to make their own choice.

I'm not familiar with the "young girl" versus Virgin debate....I need to educate myself......but I know where my faith lies and what I believe.

Yes, Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th.  That date was appropriated by early Christians to coincide with an existing pagan celebration, to ease the conversion of the pagans to Christianity.  As much as Easter moves from year to year, it obviously isn't on the exact day of the Resurrection either.  

Mormon's (and I had to Google this to be sure), are Christian, but hold other beliefs (or dis-beliefs) that do not correspond with either being a Catholic or a Protestant.  They are their own denomination.  Who is to say their leader didn't hear an angel?  I may not believe it, but many do.  Time will tell.

I guess my religion has taught me tolerance and acceptance, but still give me the strength to stand up for what I believe.

Jesus wasn't all forgiveness and gentility.  He also was known to flip over the vendors tables in his Fathers house and then chase people around with a whip...sounds like my kind of guy.

 

You are one of the few Christians I have encountered that has the right attitude and viewpoints.  Most, and not just Christians, but all religions, feel their religion is the only 'right' one, everybody else is wrong, and will suffer because of it.  It appears you have an open enough mind to recognize that you may not be right, and you're willing to accept others beliefs as their own, without judging (which as I recall from some book is not ours to do).  I find it odd that the people that are the least tolerant and accepting of others beliefs tends to be Christians.

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1 hour ago, Z-man said:

I guess my religion has taught me tolerance and acceptance, but still give me the strength to stand up for what I believe.

 

 

Exactly and well said

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Hey guys: We are all unique and have many different personalities and our opinions on things can vary greatly!  But that doesn't make them wrong, and you have to look at every-thing with a open mind!  All through the history of man-kind there have been many human lives lost in the name of people's religion and beliefs!   When are we going to be tolerant of each other and their belief's  what ever they are, and so not to become their judge and jury!:)  

My dear old Dad used too say:  Son, opinions are like (A??  H**es) every-one has one!!!  LOL:lol:     "That Quote"  Still rings true today!   And this was just my opinion!  :airquote:

Later!

"MONGOOSE"   :peelout:

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